Shifty bits; Ca vs Sh vs Sr.

crabon_monkey · May 13, 2011, 8:47pm

So yeah… this has all been discussed to death before no doubt, but I have been working in a roadie only shop for three months now and have only recently been introduced to working with Campagnolo and Sram bits.

So far, my observations are:

Campagnolo: looks the part, wears well, shifts like a tractor. Inconsistent. Loud as hell.

Sram: Looks retarded, shifts ok, except down shifts on the RD and up on the front. Brakes are awesome.

Shimano: Looks ok, except that I have a hard time distinguishing between an Acera RD and a 6700 RD. Shifts like butter, every time, again and again. However, the 6700/7900 style cable routing doesn’t make for better shifting and changing a cable has become more fiddly.

I personally ride Sram Red (yellow Tour edition) on my sponsored crabon awesomeness, but I don’t find the shifting anything to write home about. It takes some getting used to doubletap, but not seeing a downshift through means you end up with an extra upshift. Shifting the front derailer is like a throwback to friction shifting! If you don’t get the cable tension spot on, it takes at least 3/4 revolution of the crank for teh chain to be picked up. BTW, I ride a compact, that may have something to do with it.

We constantly swap groups between bikes (the customer can have their bike any way they want), so I have gained a fair amount of experience building up bikes.

Designers of internal cable routing should all be executed on the spot, but that’s more of a frame manufacturer thing.

Selling only Italian brands, our shop has a heavy bias towards Campy, so I tried it on my biek (Chorus) and tried, tried to like it. It just doesn’t live up to expectations. Minute varations in der hanger alignment cause it to misshift, rattle, ghostshift. Incredibly sensitive set up proces. Noisy as fuck. More noise in one gear than another, even with perfect setup. I observed this even on Super Record goups, supposedly the very cream of the crop!

In my previous job, I was used to working with Shimano, so I may be biased, but the setup up is a walk in the park. When set up properly, a Shimano groupset is dead predictable and reliable. It is quiet, smooth. Shifting is instantaneous. Even front indexing is spot on these days. The only drawback is that if you use only one or two non shimano items, performance drops quickly.

So, fellow shifting tarckers. What are your observations, both as a rider and as a mechanic? I find these debates highly entertaining, so I am hoping this one will be also.

Larry_Winget · May 13, 2011, 9:12pm

Curious about the differences in company support (warranty, parts availability, etc…) both from a consumer and shop rat/mechanic perspective.

dfl · May 13, 2011, 9:13pm

Shimano is great to set up and feels amazing on the stand, but in practice, I don’t really get along with the shifters or rear derailleurs. The shifters just don’t work with my hands. The brakes are incredible, as is he front shifting, but if you sneeze wring at the RD, shit goes out of tension. Shimano cranks are mind-bogglingly good.

I’m running SRAM right now on my cross/useful bike and I love the shifters and rear derailleur, but the front shifting is fucking garbage compared to shimano and campy. I’m very interested in swapping to some other brand of 110bcd 48t big ring to try and get the front shifting to not suck. I do love the shit out of doubletap, though. I like that the rear sets up with such low cable tension. It makes the whole system less susceptible to cable stretch issues, in my experience. Unfortunately, the front is exactly the opposite and is super extra mega sensitive to cable stretch. I need to get an inline adjuster on my shit posthaste. SRAM cranks look cool, atmo, but are functionally just ok.

I have the least experience with campy, having never ridden on it for more than a test ride up and down the street. I have worked on a fair number of campy bikes, however, and I’m very interested in trying campy on a more long term basis. I love the unlimited trim on the front derailleur and the rear shifting feels really good on the stand. Unfortunately, it would be hella $$$$ to try it out cos I’d need new wheels.

crabon_monkey · May 13, 2011, 9:25pm

I have heard (no experience on this yet) that Campagnolo is a bastard to deal with in the warranty department.

Sram have been quick and responsive in a few cases of the S- series carbon wheels developing cracks near the valve hole (new wheel within a few days)

Shimano doesn’t warranty anything because everything they sell is a ‘wear item’.

JUGE_FREDD · May 13, 2011, 11:22pm

Shimano cranks are fucking amazing at the high end, and nobody beats their rings. I find their dual pivots to actually be too good, it’s so easy to stop really fast and scare the shit out of yourself. The new-style shifters are a lot better but I still don’t like the ergonomics, old ones were hateful. Really don’t like the ‘bang’ you get when shifting the rear.

Love 10s Campy ergo, haven’t tried the new 11s shape yet but I think they’re uggo. Setting up the levers is a bit of a PITA but the rear derailleur is easy. The only times I’ve had trouble were because something else was royally fucked (mostly chains). I really really despise how Shimano and Campy ship chains with special pins instead of magic links.

Am accumulating parts for my first SRAM setup now. Really like the shifters, cassettes, and the Rival cranks (best price / weight / stiffness ratio by far).

catdrew_f · May 13, 2011, 11:41pm

I like em all. I like the lack of vertical derrailler movement on SRAM, I love the cranks and brakes of 7900 and I love the dump and shifting on campy. Pesonally I ride campy for road an SRAM for cx. Ymmv

dougtruck · May 14, 2011, 4:14pm

see sig

rhys · May 14, 2011, 5:31am

I have ridden a few shimano groupsets in my relatively short (~2 years) road biek experience. Tiagra, tri-colour 600, 7400 DA, 7800 DA and some new Ultegra bits too. Seeing as I have broken and/or bent 13 sets of cranks and bottom brackets in my cycling experiences, it’s interesting to note that I have yet to damage any shimano road cranks, and I’ve only bent two of their bottom brackets.
Everything good that is said about shimano shifting is true, and anything bad is probably a lie. I think a lot of it has to do with learning when to shift, with regards to how much power you’re putting down/where your pedals are. I have a mixture of 10sp 7800/the equivalent ultegra on my klein, and even with 7400 cranks with 8 speed front rings, it shifts and rides without flaw. I have figured it out now where i can climb hills of say, 10%, change gears under power and not make a noise at all. (still figuring this out with my sram)
I got sram red on my newest road biek and I like it a lot. Smaller hoods mean smaller hands are more comfortable. The biggest selling point for me was that the shifting mechanism isn’t fixed to the lever - you can pull it right back to the bars. This is useful to me as I have short fingers, and when you’re in the sprint you can just throttle it like a motorbike and it changes excellently. It took me about five minutes to get used to the double-tap, but sometimes I still miss an upshift and get a downshift for my troubles. C’est la vie.
I did notice the front shifting with the original rings was a bit poo, however since I changed to the TT rings (55/42) it shifts better than any shimano I’ve used. Maybe I just got lucky with front derailleur setup, I don’t know.
I heard a bit about Sram being really noisy before I got it, but I think it’s largely to do with the dynamics of the frame. I have some aero tubing (felt ar3) so my frame doesn’t resonate at all and it’s extremely quiet. My friends Cervelo R3SL however, is quite rattly and industrial. Possibly due to the setup though, mine’s pretty much out of the box and he put his together himself. I have the sram al30 race wheels too, and if I was 20kg less they would probably be awesome, but they have 4 spokes less than what I need and they rub the brakes when I climb hills.
I won’t use campy, because (around here at least) it’s a bit of a elitist thing, and some guys I know who use it just talk so much shit about every other groupset, it’s not something I’ll go out of my way to align myself with.
I really like what sram is doing - bringing excellent quality to affordable complete bikes, at a really good weight if you’re that way inclined.

In my experience, the tri-colour 600 is the best grouppo I’ve ever used. Brifter size, feel, aesthetically, everything. It’s also nearly 16/17 years old, and probably still works the same as it did when it was new. I’m sure all the bikes surrounding Fukushima with 600 on them still work perfectly.

VT_regularbike · May 14, 2011, 5:50am

So far the best shifting drive train I’ve ever had is currently on my flat bar road bike which is cobbled together from a mixture of parts. Shimano Alivio 8spd shifters, Campy chorus cranks (53/39), a campy FD I got from Mr. Bear, some shimano 8spd 12-25 cassette, a 7spd RSX Rd, and a used 10spd KMC gold chain. Shifts better than SRAM in anyway. On the other hand my regular road bike is SRAM Force and while I love the double tap shifting I fucking hate the front shifting (as others have stated) I have yet to try other rings/ cranks but really I think sram group with shimano cranks is probs the best performance/ bang for buck.

VT_regularbike · May 14, 2011, 5:58am

I PM’d you about a shimano 110 BCD 48T ring

JUGE_FREDD · May 14, 2011, 7:06am

^ come at me about that too

Toast · May 14, 2011, 7:27am

Record 10 Ultra levers on Chorus derailleurs: hot shit all-around. rather violent compared to my experience with shimano STIs, but I quickly got used to it.

Mix of 5600/6600: good rear shifting, horrible lever/hood shape

DA7400: pretty good, definitely cripser than 5600/6600 stuffs.

10s shimano bar-cons (indexed) with 7spd (6200?) shimano derailleurs: awesome in rear, annoying in the front

ST700 deore thumbies: great

suntour micro ratchet thumbies: just OK

santé DTs as friction: OK – absolutely no ratcheting action in 'em, kinda annoying

7s era 105 DTs as friction: very, very good… subtly ratcheting works awesome for a commuter.

quilbert420 · May 14, 2011, 3:03pm

can’t wait to try 10 or 11s campag.

that_guy · May 14, 2011, 3:41pm

Campy shifters >

Shimano drivetrain >

SRAM brakes >

profit.

rabbi · May 14, 2011, 4:33pm

Sram brakes, really? Shimano probably definitely has the best brake in the business.

I’ve only ever put real miles on shimano. Never more than test rode sram and campy, but I can say my mitts don’t approve of sram hoods and I don’t like doubletap. At all. I love the ergonomics of new campy, but it’s far too baller for me.

*although I might build the bianchi back up with veloce and a conversion cassette.

mr_fop · May 14, 2011, 6:45pm

[quote=crabon monkey]So yeah… this has all been discussed to death before no doubt, but I have been working in a roadie only shop for three months now and have only recently been introduced to working with Campagnolo and Sram bits.