I’ve read gun magazines. The fantasy of shooting bad guys is about 75% of the ads. As you’ve noted, the reality of shooting bad guys is far more infrequent.
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I’m not sure about the frequency with which those that indulge in those fantasies imagine these things are happening. That’s the sort of thing I tend to spend much time reasoning about. Granted, I’m aware that these people exist, and I’m also aware that they’re ridiculous. Having been a fairly active in shooting sports at points, I have stories.
That said, the frequency with which folks use a firearm to defend themselves is somewhat surprising, especially given the rhetoric from the pro-gun-control folks who suggest that it’s extraordinarily rare.
I’m not espousing any particular position, but:
Every day, more than 100 Americans are killed with guns and 200 more are shot and wounded.
from: Gun Violence in America | Everytown Research & Policy
2/3 of those are suicides, if we exclude them, we end up with roughly 33 or so gun deaths per day. If defensive use of a firearm were “rare” or “extremely rare” I’d think it’d be a fraction of that. Turns out that it’s a multiple. It’s hard to say specifically, because the data is not great, but it’s pretty clearly a multiple of that.
Armed with that data, one may begin to wonder how many defensive uses makes up for how many killings.
I’m not sure why you think that.
My guess is that the 33 or so daily non-suicide gun deaths are mostly gang violence and other crimes, not self-defense. I’d think there’s probably statistics about that out there.
Been thinking about this. It feels like the overlap of people willing to exit the vehicle with a weapon and people willling to drive around hoping to hit them later is a pretty damn big overlap atmo.
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im just curious why gang related violence and gun use can’t be self defense?
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Well, the argument gun nuts bring up in favour of gun ownership is to protect yourself and your family in case of a home invasion, mugging or maybe take out a mass shooter. Not helping you win turf wars against rival gangs… I guess if you’re a gang member you would see killing the other guy first as self-defense but most outside observers wouldn’t put it in the same category as the kidnapping victim killing the kidnapper.
If you’re selling drugs to pay the bills and someone tries to kill you over it, I’d say using a gun to protect yourself is absolutely just as much self defense as it would be if you were fending off an armed robber in a convenience store.
Not that I’m necessarily advocating for either, but I’d say there’s probably a lot of “gang violence” that would be self defense if we didn’t have a fucked up drug policy and some serious issues with how race plays into it.
White guy shoots someone to protect himself and his assets: “self defense”
Black “thug”does the same: “gang violence”
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I wasn’t suggesting that the 33 killings by day are self defense or not. Actually, they presumably are not. It might be more accurate to say that roughly 33 people per day are murdered by folks with guns.
That’s a terrible statistic, one that would support an argument for gun control, fewer, guns, etc. Ostensibly, there’d be fewer people murdered if there were less guns.
My point, is that I’ve seen the narrative come out of some pro-gun-control folks that self-defense use of a firearm is exceedingly rare. From these same folks, I’ve also seen the narrative that gun deaths (the statistic above, presumably) are not exceedingly rare.
I’m not trying to refute the argument that less guns would reduce gun deaths. I’m saying that having seen this narrative, it’s surprising to me that when taking a look at the statistics, self-defense use is more common than I was led to believe.
… and yet still vanishingly rare, compared to the total population of gun owners.
I ‘spect most gun owners don’t anticipate the need to use a firearm in self defense. If we wanted a statistic to compare against, I think a more reasonable one would be concealed carry permit holders.
Considering all my guns live in a safe and I shoot maybe once or twice a year. I don’t really ever consider using them in self defense. It’s unlikely they’d be useful in a home invasion scenario either even though the safe is within a few steps of the bedroom I’d have to cross line of sight from the front door. I have guns because I grew up shooting completion small bore 3 position matches and have a pellet gun for ratting, a biathlon rifle converted from my old small bore competition rifle, a shot gun for fun trap and skeet shooting and an AR-15 ghost gun because working at a machine shop I felt like quick project and something not .22lr
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18.66 Million Concealed Carry Permit Holders
Holy shit.
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Okay, okay…
Defensive gun use happens anywhere from 55k to 80k to 4.7m times per year. As I said, the data is all over the map. Read this:
Let’s say 80k or the top end of the low end if that makes any sense at all. Now, there’s 18.6m folks in this country that wanna roll strapped. So, 1 in every 232.5 of those folks will experience a DGU, presumably, so that’s .43 percent in a given year.
'Course if that 80k number is actually 4.6m that’s more like 1 in 4, so basically we can conclude fuckall.
Think of all the people not carrying guns that manage to get by. I’m not saying a gun is never the only answer, but the consequences of it being the wrong answer are enduring.
Defending “stuff” with death is fucking insane to me. Not even the worst authoritarian shit hole countries kill you for theft.
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I’m trying to be careful not to imply any particular conclusion one could draw from these data. Every one of us has our own bias and background that may influence that conclusion.
Specifically, I was hoping to have some kind of quantitative analysis and wanted to comment on how I was surprised by the data.
I guess I’m commenting how high 1 in 232.5 sounds to me.
not very?
Extremely. That’s why I brought up non gun owners. Every year, 1 in 232.5 of everyone will find themself in a situation where drawing a gun on someone is justified (and a good decision)? You’re going to manufacture the need for the tool you carry everywhere. ATMO.
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Lotta nails out there.
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It’s impossible to know how many “DGU” are situations where the gun was necessary for defense. My own bias as someone who has never owned or carried a gun is a that’s it’s not a lot of them. Typically walking away or not engaging are effective.
Anyway, I rented a giant SUV for my vacation. It’s quiet and powerful. It helps me understand the careless malice with which many people drive their car: this thing is clearly designed to utterly disconnect the driver from the world around them. A firm press on the pedal gives me a sudden burst of smooth, silent speed. Outside I know the engine is roaring.
Also it makes going 85 feel slow. And the internal nav system has a checkered flag for the destination.
Not saying vehicle design causes careless aggressive driving, but it sure makes it easy!
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