I’m relatively unadapted to cycling right now, but my fit is pretty standard for an old guy/comfort bike that’s put a few miles in the saddle. Only thing I’m riding lately is the Poprad with Jack Browns. It’s setup as follows: 72.5/73 HTA/STA, 55cm TT, 11cm -7 stem on top of 3cm of spacers, 72cm saddle height with an Arione set back pretty far. It’s hard to say with that saddle because it has a long nose, but it’s almost all the way back on the rails on a Thomson setback post. I’m using FSA Compact bars, so not a lot of reach to the hoods or hooks, which I can ride comfortably in. If I were going to fit a road bike, I’d go 54cm/73HTA/12cm -7 stem and 1cm spacer with ~145mm head tube length.
My ideas on fit are that there are really no good rules of thumb and the shortcoming of most fitters is that they fail to understand that the human can adapt at least as well as the bike. Actually, it may not be a lack of understanding, but aversion to change. KOPS is bullshit as is described on those numerous links. That method of lifting one’s hands off the bars I think is not really a good metric either. Ever ridden your aggressive-fit race bike around bar-hopping or cruising around with friends? If you’re not putting down power (really pedal force) it gets really unpleasant in a big hurry. It’s true that more setback will give you more leverage, but if the pedal force is low, more leverage won’t help.
Generally, I’m going to know how much they ride and what their goals are. Based on that, I’d pick a bike that suits the style of riding they want to do and adjust the proportions to their body. I’d adjust torso angle based on the expected power output (or pace) and then center the human over the bike properly to achieve ideal weight distribution.
I likely wouldn’t make it as a fitter because I’d be inclined to put people on bikes they wouldn’t immediately find to be comfortable. Again, the human can adapt.
i definitely agree on the bit about bar-cruising with your race roadie (although for me it all gets tossed out the window pretty fast as soon as the booze touches my lips, because a friday bar cruise quickly turns into full-on FTP work when i’m shithoused). but yes, if i want to cruise around merrily at 13mph, a slammed 130mm is really not the way to go about it.
nonetheless, i’m still inclined to say that in lieu of that, the same rule dave kirk gives would apply from race day special to bar bike cruiser. the difference is, whereas as mr. imaginary bike fitter, i would fit a track or crit racer around the drop position (i.e., have them push a medium-hard gear on a slight incline and then take hands off bars and make minute adjustments until torso can remain in the same angle without significant effort to balance), i’d take the same person for their ‘sunday’ bike fit and do it around a different assumed position - i.e., if they had porteur bars set up, i’d have them ride around in the same scenario until they could stay unweighted abdominally while riding without hands. that would likely mean the saddle would be moved slightly forward, although given the same anatomy, i doubt it’d be very significant.
as such, kirk’s rule in my mind still seems like a good general rule of thumb to follow, although like the human body, it can be tweaked and worked around.
the best fitters, if you talk to them, will generally acknowledge the adaptability of the human body (and the value of flexibility, core strength, and positional adaptation gained through fitness building on the bike). anyone who doesn’t is not someone to be paid for their ‘expertise’. i’ve visited, talked with and listened to enough fitters at this point where i can spot the rookies really quick - either they make big promises on their fits alone without acknowledging the importance of the other stuff (“automatic free watts!”) or go by the mechanical, formulaic approach (e.g., KOPS, or plugging body measurements into a computer to get a correct fit). one even went so far as to tell me that 99% of pro riders are wrong in their fits and would all be better off following his methodology (which usually produces a customer with a hunched upright position, whether they race cat 2’s or commute to the donut shop).
Yeah, the lifting-hands test is dependent not just on your position but also how much torque you tend to/want to put out. When I’m on a slow ride with folks I actually tend to use a big gear at a real low cadence and that keeps the weight off my arms.
Dave in the jerk thread has a point, I’ve measured CG with bathroom scales under the wheels and it’s surprisingly not much affected by where you’re gripping the bars.
And no one ever makes the obvious point that if what you really want is more of the weight distributed over the front wheel, longer chainstays will do that at least as well as shorter front center.*
*two bigbikes in my possession right now are a Specialized Expedition with 61cm tt, 45cm chainstays, 13cm stem, and a Bridgestone 400 with 62.5 TT, 43.5 chainstays, 12cm stem. Both have parallel 73.5 tubes with 50mm rake so it’s like the Specialized just puts my contact points 15mm forward on the same wheels. And it handles better on account of it.
I’ve never paid for a fit and I don’t think I would unless it were a few sessions, as in “Go ride it for a while and tell me what you think”, or even “Lose a little of that gut, come back and we’ll work at it some more.”.
I get the impression that most “pro fits” are done for people who just want to be told what to do by an “expert”. As has been discussed already in this thread the body will adapt, and as long as it’s in the ballpark that’s probably good enough for 85% of customers (pulled that percentage out of my ass). Most “pro fitters” are not in a position to say “this bike is totally wrong for you for the position you seem to want”, and most customers would not be receptive to such a suggestion.
The advantage of “fitting” yourself if there is one is that there’s no expert to agree or disagree with. Ideally it’s between your body and your bike (and your bank account)).
all of the internet fit advice is complete garbage.
actually all fit advice is garbage. when your bike fit is right, you’ll know. If my fit is off by a centimeter I can feel it about 10 miles into a ride.
gonna have to disagree with both of you on one major point: you and I may know our bodies and our bikes a little better than the average joe, but i see less avid friends who ride a little more casually and have not only horrible fits over the long run, but are adamantly against any type of adjustment. basic human biases are at play.
the main advantage of a getting a quality fit done is that it better equips you to make your own fit adjustments in the future because you’re better informed about how your body should feel on a bike, and as such rapidly accelerates what would otherwise take years of trial, error and readjustment. try convincing sw8 first fixay joe schmoe that his slammed jag stem to b123’s are a bit too low, or his saddle is a bit too high, and he’ll tell you exactly what CC just said above me.
i shouldn’t even have to say it, but it’s also advantageous to have an objective eye gauge where you are on the bike. some things, like putting on wedges/shims under cleats to correct varus/vulgus tilts or leg length discrepancies, are tough to do on your own naked eye and relatively easy from a third-person perspective. another example is correcting a minor hip rocking in the pedal stroke - even cat 3’s i’ve seen who have been on the bike for a half decade can have that problem and delude themselves into thinking it feels right because they’ve never tried adjusting it.
once again, you actually have to do your homework if you want a good fit (and live in an area where there’s enough competitive incentive between different fitters to constantly improve. if you’re halfway considering a fit but on the borderline because you’re afraid the fitter isn’t bold enough to tell any of his customers they have the wrong-sized bike, interview him about it. ask indirectly and then ask directly. if s/he doesn’t fit your philosophy, go elsewhere.
by the way, i totally agree that beginner freds do want an ‘expert’ to tell them what to do, and many times over those experts really have zero qualification to charge any dollar amount for their work. but the same person would be infinitely better off if they chance upon a qualified fitter who will 1) have the chutzpah to tell them if/when their bike is the wrong size, and 2) double up on telling them the limitations of fit alone without flexibility work and the other shit mentioned above.
They spring that bullshit on way too many people for it to be for reals, especially considering the frequency with which they shim the wrong feet / do it backwards
Sorry, you’re just “relatively unadapted to cycling right now”
Just rode 20 miles home all crunk, with a slammed back SLR and a low 140mm stem with Cinelli 66 deeeep drops, no unpleasantries with being aggressively fit
The gnarlier the gnar you ride, the shorter the top tube and stem.
XC = go-fast flat and maybe swoopy singletrack = 100-110 stem, close to road fit, bars below saddle
All mountain crushing gnar = 70-90 stem, feels short at first, bars even with saddle
Downhill = 40-50 stem, sitting straight up almost, bars above saddle
You need the shorter top tube fit with longer suspension because you’re moving your weight back and forth a lot more.
All that said, I’ve always had it a lot easier fitting any MTB than any road bike.
Choose right stem length (this has a HUGE effect on handling)
Get straight post and put the saddle back in the rails a bit
Adjust saddle height
I mean, sure, you have to play with bar rotation and height, but I always felt like I got more comfortable a lot more quickly on a MTB.
[quote=tarckeemoon]I’ve never paid for a fit and I don’t think I would unless it were a few sessions, as in “Go ride it for a while and tell me what you think”, or even “Lose a little of that gut, come back and we’ll work at it some more.”.
I get the impression that most “pro fits” are done for people who just want to be told what to do by an “expert”. As has been discussed already in this thread the body will adapt, and as long as it’s in the ballpark that’s probably good enough for 85% of customers (pulled that percentage out of my ass). Most “pro fitters” are not in a position to say “this bike is totally wrong for you for the position you seem to want”, and most customers would not be receptive to such a suggestion.
The advantage of “fitting” yourself if there is one is that there’s no expert to agree or disagree with. Ideally it’s between your body and your bike (and your bank account)).
Anyway, looking forward to more links and wisdom.[/quote]
I’ve had one “pro fit” in my life. It was paid for by my insurance company when I was dealing with some IT band issues from running. I dunno. Whatever.
Absolutely nothing was changed on the bike. Guy went through all of the motions and such, watched me ride a trainer for a while, complimented my form, asked if I was comfortable, and sent me on my way without even kissing me goodbye. Easiest $400 I’ve ever seen anyone make. It’s amazing what insurance companies get charged for stuff.
When a bike doesn’t feel good, I make adjustments, as I’m sure everyone else on this site does. I don’t give a shit what GP says about my bar height or what Keith Bontrager says about my insoles or whatever. If it’s comfortable to me, great. If not, I fix it. It’s silly to have my fit judged by someone who has no idea how I’m shaped, what my riding style is like, what type of mileage I put into a ride, or so many of the other confounding factors that go into the fitting itself.
They spring that bullshit on way too many people for it to be for reals, especially considering the frequency with which they shim the wrong feet / do it backwards[/quote]
once again, as has already been said repeatedly, INTERVIEW the fitter and do your outside research.
if a dude won’t answer a few questions for you before you spring money down, run far away.
i’m still in agreement that there are plenty of crap fitters and a few really good ones. my arguments apply to the latter, so don’t bother trying to rip them on the basis of the former.
by the way, statistically speaking this site is a pretty poor sample size of the demographic most likely to benefit from a good fitter. most of you have been riding for years, have seen what a well-fitting bike looks like vs. a JA one and have put in the volume to know when something is causing pain. in other words - that means incremental gains as opposed to big ones. for 90% of y’all, the main reason to check a fit would be to dial in a racing position and take it to the next level - i.e., minute adjustments, possible wedges or shims, and +/-<1cm adjustment here and there. for 90% of the general cycling population, though, it’d be a different story.
[quote=roy]I’ve had one “pro fit” in my life. It was paid for by my insurance company when I was dealing with some IT band issues from running. I dunno. Whatever.
Absolutely nothing was changed on the bike. Guy went through all of the motions and such, watched me ride a trainer for a while, complimented my form, asked if I was comfortable, and sent me on my way without even kissing me goodbye. Easiest $400 I’ve ever seen anyone make. It’s amazing what insurance companies get charged for stuff.[/quote]
I paid for a pro fit, and he identified my need for spacers inside my pedals which fixed some excruciating IT band pain.
He also fixed my saddle and bar setup a bit that helped my back a lot.
YMMV. I got a lot out of mine that I couldn’t diagnose on my own.
What’s up with IT band pain? Recently I’ve been getting an incredible soreness in my hip socket which I don’t think is cycling specific but is certainly exacerbated by it. Is that IT band?
Yeah I googled that picture. It’s a dull throb up at the top of the yellow region. I fucked my hip up in a wreck a couple of years ago but it’s just now coming back to haunt, so dunno if they are actually related.
Choose right stem length (this has a HUGE effect on handling)[/quote]
Ah, something I haven’t quite understood is the relationship between stem length and handling. There was a time in the '90s when mtbs had 150mm stems and shit, but now it seems shorter stems are the rule? Is that a body position thing, a leverage around the steering axis thing, a where your front wheel is thing, or some other voodoo?
On the roadbike end, it’s not clear either - some interaction with trail? Some randobros say that longer toptube + shorter stem is better for the front loaded low trail thing. My Fuji has 140mm stem + noodles + 45mm trail and it’s definitely not ideal (kinda wobbly in steep climbs and slow to turn at speed – I can no hands on it for miles though) On the other hand seems people love long stems on high trail race bikes.
Stems are shorter 'cause the geometry of the bikes has changed (longer top tubes) and people are using wider bars (for leverage and control). Wider bars naturally facilitate a shorter stem for the same riding position, so now an 80mm stem is on the long side. There are still some late adopters on narrow bars, but as most people are moving towards more stunt oriented bikes as opposed to roadie positioned xc race bikes, it’s definitely going the way of the wider bar
