some old guys on serottaforums had some decent points though. a lot of people really just dont learn how to control their bikes. most people racing are much stronger than they are skilled.
i have a shit ton to learn and also a penchant for going fast down hills, but i know my skills are pretty lacking… which is kinda why actually i really want to get into mountain biking. seems like mountain bikers accrue a decent skillset.
i’m reminded pretty regularly that most people really don’t know the basics, even after years of riding. when I help at the track class, i often try to explain to people how to steer with your hips and explain it by saying “like when you ride with no hands”, only every time there are 1-2 people in my group who have seriously never even attempted or successfully ridden their bikes no handed. boggles my mind.
I’ve been riding bikes for 34 years or so. I’m most of the way into my first season of cross and it’s pretty obvious now I still don’t know shit about bike handling.
I’m no old dentist and I should probably copy and paste my last few posts from the serotta forum, but I’ll just say the following:
I’m a good descender. Last time I climbed Mt Diablo I flew down like a boss. So, I think I can go down Mt. Diablo faster than Grant. Mt. Diablo is no Las Flores.
Roberto didn’t strike me as a “cautious” rider he struck me as a “strong” rider. If you’re a dude in your late 40s or early 50s and you’re hanging with the lead group on a big ride, you’re probably the type of guy who doesn’t think of himself as an old dude. Kudos to him.
We all get old.
Ya, some dudes are offended by the spacers and stem comment. I didn’t have an issue with it. But, I also hadn’t seen the picture Noel was referring to. Maybe, he should have checked with a few guys who were on the ride and asked about Roberto’s equipment. Maybe Roberto was one of these dudes on a new bike, maybe he finally got his fit dialed in. I don’t know. I do know that he wasn’t riding a bike with an upright set up. So, here’s where it’s important to maybe retract a comment so that the true lesson isn’t lost or confused.
The dude who said he can hang on Las Flores. Shit, I’ll just have to be a gentleman on that one.
[quote=beeatnik]I’m no old dentist and I should probably copy and paste my last few posts from the serotta forum, but I’ll just say the following:
I’m a good descender. Last time I climbed Mt Diablo I flew down like a boss. So, I think I can go down Mt. Diablo faster than Grant. Mt. Diablo is no Las Flores.
Roberto didn’t strike me as a “cautious” rider he struck me as a “strong” rider. If you’re a dude in your late 40s or early 50s and you’re hanging with the lead group on a big ride, you’re probably the type of guy who doesn’t think of himself as an old dude. Kudos to him.
We all get old.
Ya, some dudes are offended by the spacers and stem comment. I didn’t have an issue with it. But, I also hadn’t seen the picture Noel was referring to. Maybe, he should have checked with a few guys who were on the ride and asked about Roberto’s equipment. Maybe Roberto was one of these dudes on a new bike, maybe he finally got his fit dialed in. I don’t know. I do know that he wasn’t riding a bike with an upright set up. So, here’s where it’s important to maybe retract a comment so that the true lesson isn’t lost or confused.
The dude who said he can hang on Las Flores. Shit, I’ll just have to be a gentleman on that one.[/quote]
Well said. Thanks for posting and I hope you don’t mind me pasting your earlier posts here.
No worries, it gave me a reason to come back to this badass forum.
FWIW, you’re the only person who understood why I related the pre-ride comments about new bikes. It’s weird to start a group ride with a bunch of dudes who seem spooked. Almost a premonition and definitely a reflection of the various skill or experience levels.
[quote=beeatnik]I’m no old dentist and I should probably copy and paste my last few posts from the serotta forum, but I’ll just say the following:
I’m a good descender. Last time I climbed Mt Diablo I flew down like a boss. So, I think I can go down Mt. Diablo faster than Grant. Mt. Diablo is no Las Flores.
Roberto didn’t strike me as a “cautious” rider he struck me as a “strong” rider. If you’re a dude in your late 40s or early 50s and you’re hanging with the lead group on a big ride, you’re probably the type of guy who doesn’t think of himself as an old dude. Kudos to him.
We all get old.
Ya, some dudes are offended by the spacers and stem comment. I didn’t have an issue with it. But, I also hadn’t seen the picture Noel was referring to. Maybe, he should have checked with a few guys who were on the ride and asked about Roberto’s equipment. Maybe Roberto was one of these dudes on a new bike, maybe he finally got his fit dialed in. I don’t know. I do know that he wasn’t riding a bike with an upright set up. So, here’s where it’s important to maybe retract a comment so that the true lesson isn’t lost or confused.
The dude who said he can hang on Las Flores. Shit, I’ll just have to be a gentleman on that one.[/quote]
Why would you think you’re faster than Grant down Mt. Diablo? I didn’t suggest that was a difficult descent unless you’re passing cars with oncoming traffic.
I’m honestly curious how that’s relevant?
…and die.
I’m one of 'em. It was a stupid comment
Can you explain to me how this descent is significantly different or less difficult than Las Flores:
someone mentioned mt. diablo. and compared mt. diablo to las flores. you also suggested that since getting to the top of stunt means 1500 ft of climbing vs 4500 for mt diablo, that las flores is not a technical descent. since when does elevation determine the difficulty of a descent? mt wilson is 6000 ft and you can fly down 16 miles without feathering the brakes once, averaging 40mph easy.
roberto’s brother described him as cautious. let’s say that’s the case. it seems that some have suggested that being cautious means being scared or inexperienced, in this case. i didn’t think he was cautious and, imo, based on riding with him for 1.5 hours, i can only conclude that he wasn’t being “cautious,” he was RIDING. i was riding too because that descent came at me unexpectedly. let’s say Roberto was trying to hang with his brother because he saw himself as a strong, fast, skilled rider. and let’s say his brother and the guys in that group were better descenders. i dont think he was in over his head because of his set up (which I’m trying to set the record straight on). i think he was in over his head because it was a tough descent, and because he overcooked a corner on a section of Las Flores which follows a section under a shaded tree line and because, possibly, as a man in his 50s, he was a little fatigued from the hour of climbing preceding the descent. In the end, I’m just adding to the conversation about “marketed rides.” Even the best organization, wont account for a number of variables which can lead to tragedy. Was this a ride I would characterize as living up to obligations of full disclosure, etc…I’m not sure.
Extra spacers and upright set up could be code for “old.” Hey, we all get old and we all lose skills. I don’t hold someone in Roberto’s position responsible for being able to self-assess his skill set at the level of professional cyclist or athlete. At the same time, I dont want to be the 60 year old who thinks he can hang with 20 year olds just because of great conditioning and genetics. We all know those guys.
Agree to disagree. My neighbor drives an M3. I’ve driven an M3. If he totaled his car on a mountain road, and if I saw picture of his vehicle with, say, $40 tires from Pet Boys, I would probably comment about the tires.
So the guy’s brother who was right behind him, said they were taking it easy and that he grabbed some brake and hit some kinda bump in the road which launched him into the barrier.
An impact like that at 20 mph is enough to cause massive head trauma,broken neck, collapsed lungs, etc. Helmet or not. It’s like falling off a fucking building.
Sounds like a freak accident and I can totally see it going down like that.
This shit just happens. I think the comments about the guy’s fit are totally innapropriate.
tc- I don’t know why I can’t stop thinking about this. There but for the grace…
i think all the “races” are invite only?
they gave a big long talk to all the team captains about hazards
there weren’t any really technical descents. but some were kinda hairy coz river gravel
Gent’s rides and Gent’s races are two different things. I think Rapha has a tough time differentiating the two, and therein lies the danger that PVC was acknowledging.
My point about Mt. Diablo was not that it’s a hard descent, it isn’t. It’s mildly technical and >30mph the whole way down and takes quite a long time. As I understand it, Grant is the fastest guy down Mt. Diablo, which is only relevant to the point about spacers and whatnot. Grant rides fat-tired rando bikes and I’ve seen photos of him leaned way, way over on one of these. Actually, scratch that part about mildly technical. It’s mildly technical to me. For most cyclists, it’s scary as hell, but it’s got good pavement, and there are no tree-shaded areas or terribly sharp switchbacks. At worse, someone could overcook a right-hander and nail an oncoming car.
That link says:
“We all know that descending is a skill that takes years and years of practice to become good at. Many cyclists never become comfortable going downhill, even after decades of practice. We also know that at age 51, Robert had only been learning to descend for three years at the most. Like so many other skills, the reactions and coordination required to descend are harder to learn the older you get. Even in the best case scenario, we have a talented novice making a run down a steep and twisty course.”
This is bullshit and unnecessary. They dude may have had skill or talent, we don’t know and it’s pointless to speculate. He still hit the fucking guardrail and died. People with skill and talent fuck up and die all the time. People without presumably do so more frequently, but in this case N=1 so there’s no statistical relevance.
beeatnik, on your point 4, I’m afraid we can’t agree to disagree. Your friend with an M3 and shitty tires isn’t a good analogy. Sure, take shitty tires and hit the wall, then there’s an easy cause to identify. A few spacers under the stem on a fucking racing bicycle is not even in the same ballpark. What pisses me off is that it’s something the fucking bike fit snobs, Swoop being the worst of them, have latched on to. Like there’s some fucking elite club someone has to join to be able to make it down a hill alive.
The idea of swoops post wasnt pointing blame, rather asking how similar issues can be avoided. Bike fit matters- you can’t compare a rando bike with high bars to a race bike with high bars… In that regard the m3 analogy is pretty close, use the bike like it is designed to. The big point is should the ride have been routed down with 100 riders, most of who had never seen the route. It is one thing to rip it up on a familiar descent, it is another to descent blind in the heat of the moment with riders all around you.
Swoop wasn’t pointing blame, he was being a dick, which is what he does the best. He implied that hairy descents should be reserved for real bike racers like himself with a slammed stem, an undersized frame, and lots of setback. He implied that the guy wasn’t skilled enough to handle the descent. Lots of people have made the same implication. Lots of people have implied that Las Flores is too difficult for the average cyclist or a group ride. None of that shit is relevant. All of it could be true or not and the guy would still be dead.