Not to say that I advocate wholesale exploitation of 3rd world countries, but in many cases these factories and facilities created by foreign companies do help local economies. In the absence of any other form of industrial/manufacturing capabilities, many of these villages and towns see money that would normally never come their way through tourism, agriculture, technology, etc. Instead of squalid poverty, the local population actually makes a consistent & regular wage, which might not be the case otherwise. It’s a little like when one of the Big 3 decide to shut down a manufacturing plant and the whole town around it goes under immediately afterwards. That’s the fear in some towns nearby me with Boeing. I understand that Nike and companies of the sort reap huge profits by outsourcing production to countries where there are lax to no environmental and labor regulations, and that is the bottom line when these decisions are made. But that doesn’t change the fact that many of those regions would be even worse off without those plants to push money into the local economy. The workers in those facilities make pennies on the dollar, sometimes even less, compared to their American counterparts. The environment is compromised in the process. But the cost of living is usually pennies on the dollar as well, and like someone else pointed out, these 3rd world photographs do bear striking similarities to America’s coming of age.
So when someone talks about buying an “ethically” made bike, I can’t help but wonder how much their “ethics” is really just a mask to make themselves feel better about their privileged lives, or is just borne out shear ignorance. If someone absolutely understands where that bike is coming from and still has an attack of conscience, then power to them. But people usually just seem to regurgitate what Howard Zinn & Naomi Klien told them to think.
I hate the argument of" they" are still better off. It fails to consider equal pay for equal work (adjusted to cost of living)… my only points here are: our choices effect others, everyone deserves be treated with respect and dignity, product pricing should reflect the true social cost, and workers should have control of the means of production. That said the next bike I buy if not used is likely to be a Soma … my goals are long-term
the guy in X factory in X country making a low (american) wage is living a better life than a starving subsistence farmer, and doubly so for his children, and their children, etc. like how i am a happy upper-middle class child because my family moved from russia back in the day to work in the american factories, which bear (as noted) a striking resemblance to (many) developing countries now.[/quote]
often those subsistence farmers are starving not because an agrarian lifestyle is a horrible thing but because the land on which they live is so exploited and the resources that they need claimed by other economic interests (foreign and domestic) leaving them little to farm with and forcing them into those sweatshops to survive. i just hate the argument that a sweatshop job is better than no job. that’s so untrue. it’s better than no job only because of artificial situations created by still more exploitation, both of people and planet.
the guy in X factory in X country making a low (american) wage is living a better life than a starving subsistence farmer, and doubly so for his children, and their children, etc. like how i am a happy upper-middle class child because my family moved from russia back in the day to work in the american factories, which bear (as noted) a striking resemblance to (many) developing countries now.[/quote]
often those subsistence farmers are starving not because an agrarian lifestyle is a horrible thing but because the land on which they live is so exploited and the resources that they need claimed by other economic interests (foreign and domestic) leaving them little to farm with and forcing them into those sweatshops to survive. i just hate the argument that a sweatshop job is better than no job. that’s so untrue. it’s better than no job only because of artificial situations created by still more exploitation, both of people and planet.[/quote]
In China, the famines and such came before the Great Leap Forward (iirc). A good contemporary parallel would be Africa: right now many are poor and starving (due to euro abuse, etc of course), and if industry came, it might not be a great standard of living, but it would be some standard of living. quite frankly it is racist to lump all white people together. the people who did all the colonizing, crushing etc are very different from the people who are managing the factories, owning the factories, etc. and to the man on the ground it matters very little why things are the way they are, instead it matters what is being done now.
As re: fairness from another post, that is arguing for communism. I would also say that to the guy in the factory, he cannot eat fairness.
There’s much that could be argued here for and against your point, but that merits a face-to-face discussion. I’ll just suggest that in a modern global society finding something that is not an “artificial situation” is going to be impossible. At this point, the world is too small.
i wouldn’t argue against that assertion you made. regardless, i think there’s a problem arguing that there is an advantage for a person in one bad situation if they were forced into it by another situation being made bad as well.
and as far as face to face, maybe. i think sort of slowly in those situations and am not as good as them. i’m not stupid, but sometimes my mind just goes a little more slowly than opponents in a debate. i like writing because i can take the time to think when my gears stick up a little bit.
There’s much that could be argued here for and against your point, but that merits a face-to-face discussion. I’ll just suggest that in a modern global society finding something that is not an “artificial situation” is going to be impossible. At this point, the world is too small.[/quote]
even though this is not my quote … I much prefer the dialog. I am too lazy to tack the time to get my point out on a long post. I also prefer to discuse than to debate, I like to think I can learn from others rather then need to push my ideas.
since we are living in a small world I think that anything we achieve has to have an international perspective.
As for why Soma … I like the Smoothie. Steel, reasonably light weight, 1 1/8 head tub, english threading it would be a base to build from
yeah, i guess i chose “debate” because i usually have opinions different than a lot of people and feel i have to defend them.[/quote]
I think I would agree with a lot of your ideas,
I never feel I have to defend but rather express, sort of plant a seed and let it germinate. I also have done a fair amount of popular education work before my move and have always felt when one comes to a place of realization on their own then they are much more likely to embrace it.
I think this idea that corporations go into 3rd world countries (we keep saying this but I think 3rd world is no longer the PC term) to help them develop is rubbish. They are there to use people in shitty situations. It’s not a charity case and people shouldn’t talk about it like it is. The byproduct is that economies do grow and living standards do rise. But the original intent was for cheap labor and that’s about it. As a matter of fact, I would say most factory owners arn’t happy about economic development and rising cost of living standards because this means they have to raise the pay of the workers.
Over the last 15 years, the average wage of a Chinese factory worker, working in coastal towns have gone up exponentially. In 1992 workers used to get paid around 200 rmb, which is about 30 USD a month. Now they get paid around 2000rmb around 300 USD per month. 10 times. 300 USD may sound very low to you, but keep in mind college grads, teachers and office clerks make about 430 USD a month here in China.
China now is no longer attractive to people trying to use cheap labor. New labor laws and the rise of wages and the lack of export tax cuts have chased a lot of people out of China. Most are going to Vietnam, India or Cambodia now for cheap labor.
Reminds me of that libertarian t-shirt that I saw that said, “Capitalists of the world: Exploit!” which is a play on the “Workers of the world: Unite” slogan. There’s nothing inherently immoral or unethical about exploitation. The dictionary gives the first definition of the word, “use or utilization for profit”. In a lot of cases, the exploitation of cheap labor is likely to have a net positive effect for the people providing the cheap labor. In a lot of cases, the opposite is also true. There is no universal guideline by which these things can be judged. There is no perfect system that will lead to fair and ethical treatment for every soul on this planet.
I love having the benefit of writing to get my thoughts down in order, but I also love a good debate. In this case, though, I’m more inclined to have a discussion rather than a debate, which given your disposition and mine, seems a more likely possibility.
[quote=tzusing]I think this idea that corporations go into 3rd world countries (we keep saying this but I think 3rd world is no longer the PC term) to help them develop is rubbish. They are there to use people in shitty situations. It’s not a charity case and people shouldn’t talk about it like it is. The byproduct is that economies do grow and living standards do rise. But the original intent was for cheap labor and that’s about it. As a matter of fact, I would say most factory owners arn’t happy about economic development and rising cost of living standards because this means they have to raise the pay of the workers.
Over the last 15 years, the average wage of a Chinese factory worker, working in coastal towns have gone up exponentially. In 1992 workers used to get paid around 200 rmb, which is about 30 USD a month. Now they get paid around 2000rmb around 300 USD per month. 10 times. 300 USD may sound very low to you, but keep in mind college grads, teachers and office clerks make about 430 USD a month here in China.
China now is no longer attractive to people trying to use cheap labor. New labor laws and the rise of wages and the lack of export tax cuts have chased a lot of people out of China. Most are going to Vietnam, India or Cambodia now for cheap labor.[/quote]
compare to the generally accepted notion that corporations make “huge profits”. nike (since it was mentioned) paid a total of $0.97 in dividends for each of it’s stocks in 2008. at a cost of about $60 per stock, that’s a 1.6% return.
[quote=y]
compare to the generally accepted notion that corporations make “huge profits”. nike (since it was mentioned) paid a total of $0.97 in dividends for each of it’s stocks in 2008. at a cost of about $60 per stock, that’s a 1.6% return.[/quote]
I disagree. Just because they paid out a little amount per stock doesn’t mean that’s all the stock holders are getting. It could also mean the company is giving more shares to each stockholder. (i’m not in finance, but I think i’m basically correct)
Also to give out 0.97 cents per share last year is DAMN GOOD! Considering the fact that if you held Lehman brothers stocks, you pretty much just lost everything you owned there. And god knows how many corporations had their shares go down to nothing. So in the financial climate of last year, if your company didn’t lose money, you picked the winning horse.
Indeed, a 1.6% yearly return on a stock is in the high-to-normal range, especially given the fact that the whole world’s economy nearly plunged into a second great depression in 2008. Not surprisingly, people cut back on their Nike buying.
dividends is proably the worst way to gauge a companies performance…
due to all of the signalling that any minute change up or down will cause, companies are very conservative with raising a dividend and do anything to never be forced into lowering it.
that being said, Nike has been doing extremely well… I know they had double digit growth last year.
The ex-head of supply chain management for Nike gave a presentation at our school last year, he was able to justify their “sweatshops” pretty easily.
What in the fucking hell are you talking about? Nike stock has been recovering well for the past six months, but is today precisely where it was a year ago after having suffered terrible results in 4Q08.