Niner did it first/better.
Niner did it first/better.
[/quote]
dem’s purdy
bad carbon frames are terrible
there is no material hierarchy[/quote]
who’s to say they’re bad, or this is good? most likely the ebay frames are just unbranded frames from other brands a la bikesdirect.[/quote]
seems like nobody would keep the secret if they where awesome huh?
bd isn’t just unbranded frames from other dudes jsyk.[/quote]
A) there’s a thread on RBR of people who love their ebay frames, also good reports on bf
B) aren’t most of them? the example that comes to mind is the track one.
D) no one is designing and setting up new manufacturing for a $340 carbon frame. i cant imagine how they couldnt be knockoffs from the same factory.[/quote]
the anonymous jackasses who post on BF can’t tell a good bike from their asshole.
there’s good bikes and bad ones made of every material. if you had to guess, where do you think the cheapest carbon bike money can buy would fall?
bad carbon frames are terrible
there is no material hierarchy[/quote]
who’s to say they’re bad, or this is good? most likely the ebay frames are just unbranded frames from other brands a la bikesdirect.[/quote]
seems like nobody would keep the secret if they where awesome huh?
bd isn’t just unbranded frames from other dudes jsyk.[/quote]
A) there’s a thread on RBR of people who love their ebay frames, also good reports on bf
B) aren’t most of them? the example that comes to mind is the track one.
D) no one is designing and setting up new manufacturing for a $340 carbon frame. i cant imagine how they couldnt be knockoffs from the same factory.[/quote]
the anonymous jackasses who post on BF can’t tell a good bike from their asshole.
there’s good bikes and bad ones made of every material. if you had to guess, where do you think the cheapest carbon bike money can buy would fall?[/quote]
A lot of assumptions in that post…
A) My primary evidence was RBR, not BF.
B) There are a disproportionate amount of idiots on BF, but some of the more credible members have come forward with decent reviews. Of course, this is all still countering the non-existant negative reviews.
C) I don’t question that there are good and bad bikes, just the assumption that a high price means high quality. I assume that those eBay frames with the Onda-looking forks are just Pinarello’s sold on the sly. It makes sense to me that given the lax enforcement of intellectual property in Asia, the lack of R&D, marketing, or even basic business organization means they could sell the frame pretty cheap. Might be a moral can of worms depending on your point of view, but that’s another can of worms.
I would also say that even if they’re not coming from the factory, China/Taiwan/etc has shown it can do a very good job copying and manufacturing carbon stuff in general. Gigantex rims, the carbon rims that Williams/etc use, are the rim equivalent of these frames. Are they as good as Zipps? Maybe not, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you get some damn small diminishing returns on the more expensive wheels.
How interesting that Jacques is using the exact same logic to try and debunk the carbon eBay frames as the people on BF whom he looks down upon.
Niner did it first/better.
[/quote]
dem’s purdy[/quote]
and apparantly good at getting hammered
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_O9PLorYPA
A lot of the knock offs (the Pinarello copies) do come from the same factory. The difference is they might be a frame that failed the quality control for Pinarello and so are resold either nameless or under a different frame. There was an issue with people who bought some rebadged Pinarellos recently that experienced stress cracking. (2008/9 Princes that had been QC’ed had seatpost interface issues with stress cracks forming in the seat tube.)
All it takes a few flaws in the layup or curing process or whatever and you have a bike that might be rideable, but is not going to be QC’ed by the maker because of the increased risk of a warranty issue.
So yeah, that frame probably does come from the same factory and even from the same equipment used to make the expensive Italian brand name bike, but more likely than not there is a reason why it is not being sold for 5x the price and badged as an Italian race machine. It more likely than not has some kind of flaw, that may or may not present itself as an issue later on. That could be a stress fracture, thin walled tubing, whatever.
Comes down to how much risk you’re willing to assume I guess.
[quote=yahikokeirin]A lot of the knock offs (the Pinarello copies) do come from the same factory. The difference is they might be a frame that failed the quality control for Pinarello and so are resold either nameless or under a different frame. There was an issue with people who bought some rebadged Pinarellos recently that experienced stress cracking. (2008/9 Princes that had been QC’ed had seatpost interface issues with stress cracks forming in the seat tube.)
All it takes a few flaws in the layup or curing process or whatever and you have a bike that might be rideable, but is not going to be QC’ed by the maker because of the increased risk of a warranty issue.
So yeah, that frame probably does come from the same factory and even from the same equipment used to make the expensive Italian brand name bike, but more likely than not there is a reason why it is not being sold for 5x the price and badged as an Italian race machine. It more likely than not has some kind of flaw, that may or may not present itself as an issue later on. That could be a stress fracture, thin walled tubing, whatever.
Comes down to how much risk you’re willing to assume I guess.[/quote]
the pinarello knock offs come from treviso?
now i just have to find some jerkoff selling a dogma 54cm.
The Pinarello knock-offs, as well as the Specialized knock-offs (same factory, same intellectual property violation), were simply made in the same mold - that’s where the similarities basically ended. Everything else was cheaper about those frames, using lower quality carbon fiber, lacking quality control, and most importantly, a company you can complain to when the frame cracks in six months.
That’s not to say that they were all terrible frames, but the people who bought thought were not getting a Prince any more than someone who buys a bike made with Colnago lugs is getting a lugged Colnago.
[quote=yahikokeirin]A lot of the knock offs (the Pinarello copies) do come from the same factory. The difference is they might be a frame that failed the quality control for Pinarello and so are resold either nameless or under a different frame. There was an issue with people who bought some rebadged Pinarellos recently that experienced stress cracking. (2008/9 Princes that had been QC’ed had seatpost interface issues with stress cracks forming in the seat tube.)
All it takes a few flaws in the layup or curing process or whatever and you have a bike that might be rideable, but is not going to be QC’ed by the maker because of the increased risk of a warranty issue.
So yeah, that frame probably does come from the same factory and even from the same equipment used to make the expensive Italian brand name bike, but more likely than not there is a reason why it is not being sold for 5x the price and badged as an Italian race machine. It more likely than not has some kind of flaw, that may or may not present itself as an issue later on. That could be a stress fracture, thin walled tubing, whatever.
Comes down to how much risk you’re willing to assume I guess.[/quote]
I don’t know specifically about Pinarello’s, but I agree with what you are basically saying.
And for the guys bitching about shipping from Asia. 150 is nothing compared to distributor/dealer and VAT mark up. I hope my lbs and distributors don’t see this.
I’LL TAKE THREE!!!
to paraphrase atmo: this ain’t fuckin’ macrame, these are vehicles
[quote=turpentine]
the pinarello knock offs come from treviso?
now i just have to find some jerkoff selling a dogma 54cm.[/quote]
Dogmas (along with the rest of the Pinarello line) are made in Taiwan. They are then shipped to Treviso and painted. The “Made in Italy” sticker simply means 50% of the value is added in Italy. And before you think I’m trying to hate on Pinarello I have a 2010 Dogma on backorder all paid up and waiting on delivery for next season (in a 54 btw.) Taiwan has some of the best carbon fiber manufacturing facilities in the world and the 60HM1k fiber is an extremely nice material. (Edit: this sentence is awkward, the fiber comes from Japan. Torayca is a subsidiary of Toray and they make the 60HM1k fiber with the fancy nano-alloy crap that helps stop cracks from propagating. Taiwan has top of the line CF manufacturing facilities, some of the best in the world.)
Painting, finishing and final inspection are carried out in Treviso. The autoclaves, carbon molds and manufacturing is all done in Taiwan.
So yes, eventually, you might be able to find a knock off Dogma, but I don’t think there will be any for a little while yet.
[quote=bonechilling]The Pinarello knock-offs, as well as the Specialized knock-offs (same factory, same intellectual property violation), were simply made in the same mold - that’s where the similarities basically ended. Everything else was cheaper about those frames, using lower quality carbon fiber, lacking quality control, and most importantly, a company you can complain to when the frame cracks in six months.
That’s not to say that they were all terrible frames, but the people who bought thought were not getting a Prince any more than someone who buys a bike made with Colnago lugs is getting a lugged Colnago.[/quote]
Thanks I forgot to mention that. You’re definitely not getting Torayca 40/50/60HM1k fiber in a cheap knockoff.
WTF dogma. You rich bitch you. Better be record and bora ultras.
SR11 and Shamal Ultra 2-ways.
I’m sure there are better ways to spend the money, but this is the only thing I do for a hobby.
I don’t own a car so I guess this is my mid life crisis vette. lol
Those dogmas popped up on chainlove very frequently before, forgot what sizes they were or the price though
I haven’t seen it recently so many someone bought it
i’m pretty sure you can’t make a pinarello the same way without that carbon.
oh and here is them making them
looks like tewbs layered in japan prolly molded in taiwan then they put some gorilla glue shit on in italy.
BY HANDE
bye ann
[quote=yahikokeirin]A lot of the knock offs (the Pinarello copies) do come from the same factory. The difference is they might be a frame that failed the quality control for Pinarello and so are resold either nameless or under a different frame. There was an issue with people who bought some rebadged Pinarellos recently that experienced stress cracking. (2008/9 Princes that had been QC’ed had seatpost interface issues with stress cracks forming in the seat tube.)
All it takes a few flaws in the layup or curing process or whatever and you have a bike that might be rideable, but is not going to be QC’ed by the maker because of the increased risk of a warranty issue.
So yeah, that frame probably does come from the same factory and even from the same equipment used to make the expensive Italian brand name bike, but more likely than not there is a reason why it is not being sold for 5x the price and badged as an Italian race machine. It more likely than not has some kind of flaw, that may or may not present itself as an issue later on. That could be a stress fracture, thin walled tubing, whatever.
Comes down to how much risk you’re willing to assume I guess.[/quote]
All my base are belong to you.
But I still think in general the more expensive=more better assumption is something that should stay inside the BF think-tank.