[quote=“bradencbc”]In regards to radial lacing that depends as much on what track your ride as anything else. I been told by many of the bigger guys that ride the shorter tracks like Forest City that a radial front just wont cut it for lateral stiffness on really short tracks. Granted this is coming from sprinters not endurance riders. Canecreek is wise to this and offers a crossed laced front wheel in both 50mm and 80mm versions.
As far as wheelset price goes I am talking about being able to make a REALLY good set of race wheels for well under $1000. You could easily build a sub $500 set of these with formula hubs, higher end dt spokes, and ceramic bearings. That’s about half the price of ANY other race wheelset out there with a rim profile that deep. Besides it’s not like kids are not dropping about that to lace up some phils to open pros.
As far as Neuvation goes I am pretty sure they are using Formula or Novatec. Their hubs are basically the same stuff that velocity and alex/a-class use for their wheels. The alex hubs use a set screw that holds part of the hub shell together while the velocity spartacus/uriel hub is the same thing as the Neuvation. Given Velocity’s choice to source formula hubs for their track wheels I would guess they are doing the same for the road stuff as well.[/quote]
Radial lacing increases lateral stiffness by reducing the length of spokes. Go read some of the ad copy for the Roval Rapide Star hubs. They help explain it with illustrations and everything.
Your first mistake is trusting anything that comes out of the marketing department from Specialized. Those jokers had to have campy build their wheels before Quickstep would even ride them…
Anyone who has built wheels knows this is 100% wrong when applied to a more conventional wheel. If you put the axle of a radial laced wheel on a hard surface and press down on the rim at opposing sides of the wheel you will find it takes significantly less force to flex the wheel in this way compared to a cross laced wheel built with the same rim/hub/spokes. Specialized’s bull only works when applied to an extremely high flange hub built to VERY high spoke tensions. Your typical hand built wheel will never be build to that tension level.
Radial is lighter and more aero… but the sacrifice is stiffness and strength.
Yea i was totally thinking of using rebranded formula hub shells because they do make a very decent hub and putting some high grade ceramic NSK bearings in them.
it really comes down to. Do people want a good value wheel. or do they want name brand. Dura Ace is of course a very very good hub. but you just don’t get that bang for your buck.
It seems easy enough to get formula to OEM their hubs with high end bearing. i wonder why no one has done this yet.
It seems that many people here like the classic j bend high flange . no one digs the cnced hub flange, straight pull wheel?
Once you start replacing formulas or dimensions with name brand hubs and plain bladed spokes with cx-rays or god forbid ceramic bearings it seems like your going to end up with a wheelset well upwards of $500 instead of at or below $300 and it’s not going to be any faster. Then again I’m not in the market for such a wheelset anyway just rims.
You could try to figure out where those neuvation hubs are coming from that are so popular on low end road wheelsets and see if that factory wants to get into the track game too. But I think the key is to keep everything generic.[/quote]
Mike Garcia builds sub 1500 gram road wheelsets for under $350 with Sapim spokes. Talk to him and see if his manufacturer will build a track hub…
i’m def doing the low spoke count rim option. that would be the easiest thing to do. But i do know that lots of stores really like wheel sets. Because they end up making more from wheel sets than for charging for wheel build labor. They make more money if the wheel builder is on the floor doing sales instead.
Plus many stores just don’t have the man power to build so many wheels.
instead of the standard old school hub where the flange is forged with the whole hub. (like the link you have with the iro hub)
but yes the holes on there are cnced. Sorry if this was a bit confusing.
instead of the standard old school hub where the flange is forged with the whole hub. (like the link you have with the iro hub)
but yes the holes on there are cnced. Sorry if this was a bit confusing.[/quote]
Ok i thought you were still talking about Formula hubs.
Those zipps are nice but that will eliminate anyone buying the set that wants to run them on the street.
Also, most people that want those hubs you linked to… also want tubular rims.
While the idea behind the straight pull spokes is 100% sound, I would personally prefer a traditional j bend hub for ease of finding replacement spokes should I need them. I also imagine that sticking with a traditional hub flange but offering different drillings would keep costs lower than having to worry about completely different hub shells for front and rear or different spoke count wheels.
Well i wasn’t talking about ZIPP hubs$$$
But i could def do similar straight pull teched out hubs.
The downside being many people are not familiar with straight pull.
And teched out isn’t one of those keywords for the urban fixed gear market.
but i do believe that straight pull spokes are stronger than j-bend.
[quote=“bradencbc”]Your first mistake is trusting anything that comes out of the marketing department from Specialized. Those jokers had to have campy build their wheels before Quickstep would even ride them…
Anyone who has built wheels knows this is 100% wrong when applied to a more conventional wheel. If you put the axle of a radial laced wheel on a hard surface and press down on the rim at opposing sides of the wheel you will find it takes significantly less force to flex the wheel in this way compared to a cross laced wheel built with the same rim/hub/spokes. Specialized’s bull only works when applied to an extremely high flange hub built to VERY high spoke tensions. Your typical hand built wheel will never be build to that tension level.
Radial is lighter and more aero… but the sacrifice is stiffness and strength.[/quote]
Why not? You’re supposed to build radial wheels to a higher tension. That’s not common knowledge? I build cross spoked to ~80 kgF, radial to ~120. That’s a 1/3rd more. Though I haven’t built two completely identical (‘cept lacing) wheels to compare, I can tell you my radial builds feel stiff as rocks. I’m talkin’ diamonds, not of that pussy sandstone. That’s also the general consensus, not just mine and Specializeds.
What you are getting at largely applies to specialty wheels and not hand built ones. It also applies more to road riding and less to track. Getting back to what I originally said I am talking about extreme circumstances created by smaller velodromes. On a 400m or a 333m will it make any difference? Probably not. But I am speaking about very specific situations that are not taken into account by most manufacturers and certainly not by any who are building a product for a road bike
[quote=“dutret”][quote=“tarckatina”]
seen dimension hub threads strip one too many times to trust them.[/quote]
on a track or being abused skid stopping with a poorly tightend lockring and or shitty cog?[/quote]
just from regular swapping of the cogs (dura ace or better). the threads are a little soft from what i’ve heard.
LF formulas seems like a good idea though. dirt cheap, classy enough, time proven.
i’m still more interested in just getting rims for racing vs. getting full wheels though. just want it to be offered in tubular… oh and a white option would be great. or gun metal grey…
p.s. why all the talk on ceramic bearings for a race wheelset? you’re far better off spending the money you’d put on ceramic into getting nicer tires, i’m positive that would make more of a difference. most manufacturers only claim the ceramic upgrade to be giving you an extra 3 watts per wheel…
[quote=“tzusing”]Yea i was totally thinking of using rebranded formula hub shells because they do make a very decent hub and putting some high grade ceramic NSK bearings in them.
it really comes down to. Do people want a good value wheel. or do they want name brand. Dura Ace is of course a very very good hub. but you just don’t get that bang for your buck.
It seems easy enough to get formula to OEM their hubs with high end bearing. i wonder why no one has done this yet.
It seems that many people here like the classic j bend high flange . no one digs the cnced hub flange, straight pull wheel?[/quote]
If you’re making a set of “race” wheels and you’re planning on using Formulas, I’d suggest sticking their their traditional cup/cone hub, like the one on the top of this page. I’m not a huge snob on the cartridge/loose ball bearing issue, but if they’re going to be race-specific, then why not?
Also, please sell these as low-spoke count, stand-alone tubular rims. If you actually produce a low-cost alternative to Zipp, you’ll have a huge hit on your hands. Probably a bigger hit than you’ll have with fixed gear hipster types.
Thanks a lot for all the interest in my project
Seems like i should first do the whole tubular low spoke count thing before the wheel set. and i’ll let the hub problem sit for awhile.
This might take awhile as this would include opening a new die and doing some redrawing on the profile.
a reason for why i was aiming at the fixed gear hipster type is because i ride a fixed gear track bike on the road. and my idea for my company was to only make products i would use.
But i guess with a profile like this i would be doing myself and others a disservice by not selling it to a wider market.
does a welded joint mean much to you guys?[/quote]
Depends on how much more I need to pay to get it. If the difference was $20, I’d jump. For $50, probably not.
I don’t think I use wheels to the extent that welding makes a difference (I rode a non-welded deep-v in the back every day for four years and never had a problem till I got hit by a truck and one of the many places it broke was at the joint), but having it would mean something to me.
And it does make a difference in the aesthetic if the rim isn’t powder coated.