The truth about Bikes Direct

Tarckives Bikes
61

huh?

They are not bad at all.[/quote]

The frames aren’t TOO bad in all reality. Not the finest materials, but not junk. What typically IS junk are headsets, straddles, seat posts, clamps, stems, etc. They sell you on a recognizable name in components (105 with Ultegra FD!!!), but skimp on the smaller things.[/quote]

I’m not picking sides in the argument because I have nothing to gain from either winning, but I do think that it’d be interesting to get a complete and total parts list from, say, a Fantom Cross and it’s Fuji counterpart just to compare. It’d take awhile to put something like that together, but it’d put an end to this argument that’s been hashed and rehashed over and over again.

That being said, I’m sure it’d be hard to compare since a lot of the BD stuff runs parts that are a generation or so old.[/quote]

I have that so it takes no time to put together
and even for those that do not have it; it is easy

if you see a model x tektro brake, ritchey stem, mavic wheel, shimano shifter - it is the same for all brands using it

this idea that you can spec different quality of bolts or diff level of factory qc or that shimano makes grade a & b in a given part is just wrong[/quote]

Huh? This doesn’t make any sense, and it’s not relevant to anything you quoted.[/quote]

I just signed onto this board - so I do not know if there is even a PM function
so if you would like details PM me on BF.net, RBR , or MTBR
I think I can clear it up for you

62

There’s a PM function. It’s not a big deal though, I’m just trying to figure out what points you are trying to make.

63

huh?

They are not bad at all.[/quote]

The frames aren’t TOO bad in all reality. Not the finest materials, but not junk. What typically IS junk are headsets, straddles, seat posts, clamps, stems, etc. They sell you on a recognizable name in components (105 with Ultegra FD!!!), but skimp on the smaller things.[/quote]

I’m not picking sides in the argument because I have nothing to gain from either winning, but I do think that it’d be interesting to get a complete and total parts list from, say, a Fantom Cross and it’s Fuji counterpart just to compare. It’d take awhile to put something like that together, but it’d put an end to this argument that’s been hashed and rehashed over and over again.

That being said, I’m sure it’d be hard to compare since a lot of the BD stuff runs parts that are a generation or so old.[/quote]

I have that so it takes no time to put together
and even for those that do not have it; it is easy

if you see a model x tektro brake, ritchey stem, mavic wheel, shimano shifter - it is the same for all brands using it

this idea that you can spec different quality of bolts or diff level of factory qc or that shimano makes grade a & b in a given part is just wrong[/quote]

I know how to read a parts list on a website. I’m talking about the little stuff. Like who makes the “Superlite seatpost” and “Ultralight alloy seat clamp” and the such. Comparing that to the OEM products on similar products from other brands. That seems to be where a lot of the argument comes in. People complaining about the quality of a house brand wheel set, a shitty lockring, or a seatpost binder bolt might be interested in a PDF with some of that information.

Once again, I want to reiterate that I’m not picking sides here. I really think that a lot of people complain about OEM stuff on every complete bike that has ever been made. I do think that you get the brunt of it because you actually reply on messageboards and the simple fact that you’re putting out bikes for less than everyone else.

64

huh?

They are not bad at all.[/quote]

The frames aren’t TOO bad in all reality. Not the finest materials, but not junk. What typically IS junk are headsets, straddles, seat posts, clamps, stems, etc. They sell you on a recognizable name in components (105 with Ultegra FD!!!), but skimp on the smaller things.[/quote]

I’m not picking sides in the argument because I have nothing to gain from either winning, but I do think that it’d be interesting to get a complete and total parts list from, say, a Fantom Cross and it’s Fuji counterpart just to compare. It’d take awhile to put something like that together, but it’d put an end to this argument that’s been hashed and rehashed over and over again.

That being said, I’m sure it’d be hard to compare since a lot of the BD stuff runs parts that are a generation or so old.[/quote]

I have that so it takes no time to put together
and even for those that do not have it; it is easy

if you see a model x tektro brake, ritchey stem, mavic wheel, shimano shifter - it is the same for all brands using it

this idea that you can spec different quality of bolts or diff level of factory qc or that shimano makes grade a & b in a given part is just wrong[/quote]

I know how to read a parts list on a website. I’m talking about the little stuff. Like who makes the “Superlite seatpost” and “Ultralight alloy seat clamp” and the such. Comparing that to the OEM products on similar products from other brands. That seems to be where a lot of the argument comes in. People complaining about the quality of a house brand wheel set, a shitty lockring, or a seatpost binder bolt might be interested in a PDF with some of that information.

Once again, I want to reiterate that I’m not picking sides here. I really think that a lot of people complain about OEM stuff on every complete bike that has ever been made. I do think that you get the brunt of it because you actually reply on messageboards and the simple fact that you’re putting out bikes for less than everyone else.[/quote]

You are correct - low price and being open on forums creates let us say some interesting comments

Of course, it is easier to compare a Ritchey Pro Seatpost on one bike to the same post on another. [changes are that if the post just says ‘superlight seatpost’ with no brand or house brand it is a kalloy [which is not bad either]. Everyone uses the same suppliers for this stuff and its not a big part of the cost of the bike. No reason to sub cheap stuff; does not save much, lowers reputation, and increases product liability exposure.

What I was trying to explain is cutting a penny off a stem price is meaningless when most of the cost of a bike is the distribution cost. That is where major money can be saved.

65

I’d like to see a weight comparison on similarly equipped bikes from BD and several top shop names. I have not been impressed with the majority of the BD bikes I have come in contact with.

66

I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it’d be nice to have a PDF to show the naysayers when situations like this come up. How many times have you heard people complain about the lock rings on Kilos or a lame bolt on a seatpost? Bam. Pull up the file and show them that it’s the same shitty lockring or soft bolt that you’re getting OEM from any other company.

Edit - The above is directed to Mike.

Kyle, I’m curious why you haven’t liked the BD bikes you’ve come across. I’ve been around/ridden a couple and they were fine, but I’ve also heard some stories about some junker parts that, honestly, probably should be expected on a $349 bike. And with your cycling experience, I’m sure you know by now why so many companies don’t post weights on their sites.

67

SO WOULD I
and the day major makers start posting their actual weights; I will put up a comparison chart online

There is a long history to this weight issue; stating with Schwinn putting extra low weights in catalogs until it got to the point some bikes were under quoted by 10 lbs – finally must suppliers gave up printing weights

As you can guess; I would love a weight driven competition - with real weights posted everywhere

Trek, Specialized, and Giant are big enough to set this standard as soon as they like; then everyone would follow

If you have not been impressed with our Ti bikes; our SS/FG; our CX; our CF road; or so on - then I do not know what to say; magazines have been as have thousands of customers

68

SO WOULD I
and the day major makers start posting their actual weights; I will put up a comparison chart online

There is a long history to this weight issue; stating with Schwinn putting extra low weights in catalogs until it got to the point some bikes were under quoted by 10 lbs – finally must suppliers gave up printing weights

As you can guess; I would love a weight driven competition - with real weights posted everywhere

Trek, Specialized, and Giant are big enough to set this standard as soon as they like; then everyone would follow

If you have not been impressed with our Ti bikes; our SS/FG; our CX; our CF road; or so on - then I do not know what to say; magazines have been as have thousands of customers[/quote]
:bear:

69

[quote=crushmauldestroy]I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that it’d be nice to have a PDF to show the naysayers when situations like this come up. How many times have you heard people complain about the lock rings on Kilos or a lame bolt on a seatpost? Bam. Pull up the file and show them that it’s the same shitty lockring or soft bolt that you’re getting OEM from any other company.

Edit - The above is directed to Mike.

Kyle, I’m curious why you haven’t liked the BD bikes you’ve come across. I’ve been around/ridden a couple and they were fine, but I’ve also heard some stories about some junker parts that, honestly, probably should be expected on a $349 bike. And with your cycling experience, I’m sure you know by now why so many companies don’t post weights on their sites.[/quote]

True; most low end FG do not come with the best lockring; but we all use the same ones. [we used to use DA lockring on Kilo TT - but lead time went to 5 months and we had bikes sitting ready to finish build for lack of a L/R.

I think everyone here knows a $500 bike does not have as high a level of parts as a $2000 bike - but weather it is a Giant, Trek, Specialized, Fuji, Motobecane; we all have the same pool of stuff to spec from; and we do.
I am not going to post the industry specs on my bikes and other brands [which I do have access to - as many brands exchange spec info]
but here is an example of how a fork spec looks on a fork used by us and several other brands:
APREBIC ACC-A613N45 1 1/8" ALLOY STEERER FOR INTEGRATED 45mm,OFFSET 45, ALLOY CROWN, CARBON LEGS W/1 EYELET,W/MUD GUARD BOSSES,FC-770
this fork will be no different on a motobecane than one any other brand it is put on - period

There have been dozens of examples of the same exact bike sold under two different labels. Many with our labels. These bikes are well documented all over the web. I think most readers here even know to several examples. But the big picture is being missed; it costs more to buy in a shop, but you should get more personal service. It costs less to buy online; but it is less personal. Here are lots of examples of the exact same bike in a shop at twice the online price. Lots of examples of the same crank in a shop at twice the online price. etc. There are plenty of people who understand this; enough that my biggest issue is getting enough bikes. There are a few people; who for whatever reason; want to convinence people that buying online is evil. I do not think that is working out so well.

70

As I said before, it has mostly been the weight. I can’t really site specific incidents or models, but I’ve checked over and held several and the impression I left with was that I’d rather have had a shop brand bike. The issue, I assume, is that, for a given component group, a lower price frame is used. For example, an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from giant would have a better frame than an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from BD. This obviously only works if you compare bikes by their component packages and not by their price point. What I expect is that BD will release a $600 bike equipped with Tiagra using a similar frame that a shop brand would put on their $5-600 bikes equipped with Sora or 2300/2200.

Not really an issue if all you are out to get is the best $600 bike you can, but it would make comparison of similarly equipped bikes pointless.

Just my conclusion based on observation, not science.

I, for one, am not excited that you are here (regardless of the outcome of the current debate), seeing as you have been using BF as free market research for years. I hope that if you intend to use us to create new models and grow your company, you would consider contributing to the site in return.

71

[quote=TimArchy]
I, for one, am not excited that you are here (regardless of the outcome of the current debate), seeing as you have been using BF as free market research for years. I hope that if you intend to use us to create new models and grow your company, you would consider contributing to the site in return.[/quote]

I’d prefer to not see any “What does tarck think about…” threads, or anything of the like. BF does a fine job for that. I think it’s cool that Mike came here to answer specific questions, but I hope that’s all his participation amounts to. Sorry, nothing personal, but BD threads are one thing we were glad to get away from.

72

[quote=TimArchy]As I said before, it has mostly been the weight. I can’t really site specific incidents or models, but I’ve checked over and held several and the impression I left with was that I’d rather have had a shop brand bike. The issue, I assume, is that, for a given component group, a lower price frame is used. For example, an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from giant would have a better frame than an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from BD. This obviously only works if you compare bikes by their component packages and not by their price point. What I expect is that BD will release a $600 bike equipped with Tiagra using a similar frame that a shop brand would put on their $5-600 bikes equipped with Sora or 2300/2200.

Not really an issue if all you are out to get is the best $600 bike you can, but it would make comparison of similarly equipped bikes pointless.

Just my conclusion based on observation, not science.

I, for one, am not excited that you are here (regardless of the outcome of the current debate), seeing as you have been using BF as free market research for years. I hope that if you intend to use us to create new models and grow your company, you would consider contributing to the site in return.[/quote]

I just found the site today: as someone sent me a link. I do not see ads on the site; nor do I know much about it.
However, I read forums to get ideas how to serve the cycling community better. on some sites; I post and ask for opinions or requests.
I have not seen that anyone sees that a brand responding to consumer desires is a bad thing; actually lots of cyclists have posted and PM me that they appeciate it.

If whoever owners this site wants me to advertise on it: they can easily find a way to contact me. I do support lots of sites and publication by advertising with them.
I hope the owner reads this and sends me a message.

To your point on frames: it is incoorect in the case of AL frames; they are all very close in cost. And actually CF frames are close in cost [and Motobecane uses some of the more expensive by sourcing Immortal frame in Taiwan - whereas most brands source in China]. But Ti frames are very different in cost [almost 3 times a CF frame and 30 times an AL frame]

If you look at a full Ultegra or DA bike like Immortal Ice/Team or le Champion Ti SL/Team; you can get a clear picture of how the saving play out from buying online. Just compare spec to spec on bikes where most parts can be compared heads up.

73

I’m not sure how you construed my comment to be an invitation for you to post ads on our site. You paying to post an ad is not supporting the site, it is using the site to gain revenue for your company. The intention of the comment is that you should pay the site for the privilege of gaining market knowledge from us. But I am not inclined to think that that is a good scenario either. Jim said it best.

As for frame quality, I may not have the resources to find out the actual manufacturing cost of a given frame, but I know from experience that not all aluminum frames are of similar quality. The weight (mostly), welds and fine touches can attest to that. And there are multiple influences that determine the quality of carbon from the material used to the layup process. Could it really be true that a 1600g carbon frame is actually similar in price to a sub-1000g carbon frame? If all frames of a similar material are produced at a similar cost, then some people are either getting a raging deal at the low end or getting completely ripped off a the mid-high end.

74

I bet everyone on here understands why the bikes are cheaper, the more people whom touch the product the more expensive it gets. Anyone who shops online with you knows this, and anyone who comes into my shop knows that you or someone like you on the internet will sell it to them cheaper for this reason.
Not that I trust you to be honest in any way. But I bet that you don’t go out of your way to cut corners on softer or out of spec hardware or components. Not any more than any other company who supplies to a LBS. The reality is that the same customer who you “trust” to be able to assemble a bike at a near or possibly better level of competency than a paid mechanic(i’m fairly sure that you don’t actually because I can only imagine the emails you get)…is mechanically inept. Lots of people are. I’ve met people that don’t know which way to turn to tighten a bolt. I’ve seen people pull your bikes out of the back of their sedans who thought their bike was broken… turns out they don’t know how to work a threaded stem. These same people go to town, set their bike up, and over or under tighten or don’t check threads for grease, and something breaks, then they whine, and the perceived quality or your product goes down. In my opinion it comes with the territory and you caring or much worse getting defensive about it on this forum is as annoying to me as it is predictable.

Not that I post on here enough to personally offer you your first meal but someone should.

75

[quote=Jim][quote=TimArchy]
I, for one, am not excited that you are here (regardless of the outcome of the current debate), seeing as you have been using BF as free market research for years. I hope that if you intend to use us to create new models and grow your company, you would consider contributing to the site in return.[/quote]

I’d prefer to not see any “What does tarck think about…” threads, or anything of the like. BF does a fine job for that. I think it’s cool that Mike came here to answer specific questions, but I hope that’s all his participation amounts to. Sorry, nothing personal, but BD threads are one thing we were glad to get away from.[/quote]

Quoting this again. We do not want you to advertise here. We are not going to help you, you are not going to help us. Plain and simple. Why not just be a normal dude and be a regular member?

76

[quote=bikesdirect][quote=TimArchy]As I said before, it has mostly been the weight. I can’t really site specific incidents or models, but I’ve checked over and held several and the impression I left with was that I’d rather have had a shop brand bike. The issue, I assume, is that, for a given component group, a lower price frame is used. For example, an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from giant would have a better frame than an aluminum tiagra equipped bike from BD. This obviously only works if you compare bikes by their component packages and not by their price point. What I expect is that BD will release a $600 bike equipped with Tiagra using a similar frame that a shop brand would put on their $5-600 bikes equipped with Sora or 2300/2200.

Not really an issue if all you are out to get is the best $600 bike you can, but it would make comparison of similarly equipped bikes pointless.

Just my conclusion based on observation, not science.

I, for one, am not excited that you are here (regardless of the outcome of the current debate), seeing as you have been using BF as free market research for years. I hope that if you intend to use us to create new models and grow your company, you would consider contributing to the site in return.[/quote]

I just found the site today: as someone sent me a link. I do not see ads on the site; nor do I know much about it.
However, I read forums to get ideas how to serve the cycling community better. on some sites; I post and ask for opinions or requests.
I have not seen that anyone sees that a brand responding to consumer desires is a bad thing; actually lots of cyclists have posted and PM me that they appeciate it.

If whoever owners this site wants me to advertise on it: they can easily find a way to contact me. I do support lots of sites and publication by advertising with them.
I hope the owner reads this and sends me a message.

To your point on frames: it is incoorect in the case of AL frames; they are all very close in cost. And actually CF frames are close in cost [and Motobecane uses some of the more expensive by sourcing Immortal frame in Taiwan - whereas most brands source in China]. But Ti frames are very different in cost [almost 3 times a CF frame and 30 times an AL frame]

If you look at a full Ultegra or DA bike like Immortal Ice/Team or le Champion Ti SL/Team; you can get a clear picture of how the saving play out from buying online. Just compare spec to spec on bikes where most parts can be compared heads up.[/quote]

Welcome to tarckbike.com, by the way. Eat a jar of dicks.

dick-specimens.jpg558×630

77

Are those OEM dicks?

78

They say so, but I suspect they were made to lesser tolerances.

79

You really opened a potential jar of dicks with that statement, sir. But I am refined enough not to “go there.” Yet.

80

My friend’s Outcast 29er’s dropouts are warped beyond belief after about seven months of use. Tensioning the chain is harder now since the dropouts pinch the wheel in place tightly. The dropouts are visibly chewed up and tweaked.

My old Windsor had fasteners and bits that rusted so quickly it was like a design feature.

There’s clearly a quality difference with the low end BD bikes. I notice the BD guy keeps suggesting we compare some top end carbon frames with his top end bikes- I’d rather see a comparison between the budget completes and his perceived competitors