Devil is in the details. Maybe the packet framing is easy to understand but if control messages are embedded in proprietary/opaque message payloads, it could get tricky in a hurry.
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Well yeah, that’s what those guys with the funky wireless cable actuator are doing. I suspect where it gets weird is all baked-in over shifting, trim and what not. Shimano moves that servo past center and back while simultaneously telling the pusher to trim. Yeah the motions are all simple, but there’s got to be quite a bit going on there with the firmware to make it all do what it does.
I bet someone has figured it out, but it seems clear with this Karoo thing that Shimano (and Sram probably too) are going to be aggressive with protecting their tech from interlopers developing anything that actually “integrates” with their ecosystems.
I wonder if anyone has successfully done it and been slapped with a c&d already?
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wireless protocols are pretty hard to do reliably (everyone knows how well/poorly bluetooth works) so I understand the need to protect your reputation and brand.
this Shimano move is just spite though, they’re taking away something that’s worked just fine for years.
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There’s also almost certainly a layer of security, which regardless of how effective it is, will be more of a black box to work around or crack. Given Shimano’s move with Karoo, it’s pretty clear they see their software/protocols as having value and worth protecting.
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I dunno. Hammerhead was aquired by SRAM. I’m guessing the licensing contract has some non-compete language in it. SRAM and Shimano are definitely competitors.
If anything, someone could come up with a Shimano ANT+ dongle.
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yeah I understand the why and how from Shimano’s perspective, but think it’s an overwhelmingly bad move from a consumer perspective.
also, Karoo/Garmin/Wahoo could just as easily declare Shimano a “competitor” and decide their power meters are components non grata and don’t get to interact with their head units, which coupled with their accuracy problems would be enough to torpedo that product.
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Shimano did something similar with Pioneer systems recently as well. They consistently makes decisions that are not optimal for the end user so are we really shocked by this?
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This is what is ruining/has ruined bikes
20-25 years ago there were 2 major bb standards, 2 major wheel standards, and all shifter standards basically worked with each other (chainring/chain/cassette (7-8-9sp era)). One could go to any bike shop with almost any problem and walk out with a functional bike. Now you have to go to a special place to get unique parts and have it serviced by a trained tech.
I like to ride the line where I use mostly user-serviceable parts, I’ll probably never ride a super bike with the newest weird standard that gives a fractionally better result but I’ll be able to fix it myself if I need to.
Kind of thinking about buying some 10sp deadender stuff.
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Yeah, it looks like that’s where they’re headed. They appear to be going for a walled garden approach, like Apple.
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which might be an understandable business decision if they had something like a decent software engineering and operations culture 
I get that they’ll flex on OEMs and keep on doing what they do there, but I’m voting with my dollars.
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This is all why I want to see people start tinkering with the control systems for these things now, before you can only get fully siloed electronic parts in a given supplier’s product line.
the Shimano/Hammerhead thing, while understandable from a competition standpoint, is a good reminder that with this kind of product, you’re not buying the device, you’re buying a limited right to access some services at some points.
Which brings me back to my basic position with all of this : “you can’t brick a cable-operated derailleur”. My interest in opening up the control layers for this equipment is based on the assumption that it’s going to be difficult to get relatively high-end mechanical component groups in the future.
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Define high-end. Rival 2x11 is lighter than 7800 and works better (ATMO).
Sram has said they are not making any new mechanical groupsets, but there seems to be no desire to wind down their 11s stuff at this level either. Shimano on the other hand… yeah the DGAF.
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I’m willing to give SRAM a little more leeway given they’ve released a firmware update to keep on supporting 11s eTap derailleurs with newer levers, and it seems like you could use a blip box/buttons to shift AXS ders without needing SRAM levers/brakes in the mix.
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They have that 3rd party that makes the 12sp modification bits
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you’re comparing apples to older apples from a different orchard there.
It’s totally possible that most of the big mfgs will get feedback from users that inspire them to keep a decent quality mechanical groupset in each of their road product lines, but from the perspective of the present, I’m not seeing much evidence that anyone is thinking in those terms.
If this means that I just buy old groups and use more and more Ratio Tech kits to modify them as needed cool, I can probably string that along for a long time.
I’d like to see some good solutions for opening electronic shifting as well.
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Am I? You said it’s getting harder to get high end mechanical stuff. High end is just a goal post the industry loves to move.
Is there a practical improvement between 11 and 12 speed di2 that I’m not aware of?
I get why the industry is pushing electro shifting for fancy internal routed aero things. It better.
I get why they are refusing to make analog shifters to be used here because it kindof sucks. All that aero/internal hoo ha makes for problems with cables if any kind.
For all of us still riding steel bikes or whatever that makes us balk at electronic… why are we concerned with what’s in the walled garden.
I’ve spent extensive time dealing with and riding the LAST nice mechanical groups, GRX, Rival (with and without wet brakes) and Chorus disc. I’m telling you, there are not any improvements to be made that we’re missing out on compared to what’s happening with electronic (besides the fact that it’s electronic).
That is none that don’t come with some costs I suspect you are not interested in. The XDR platform is pretty MEH if you ask me and while the XPLR gearing is nice I really don’t think it’s any better than what Shimano is doing with GRX.
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I mean aero front ends are good for what 1 watt at 40kph? I understand that the fewer cables and lines you have to run through a frame the better, but that’s really a problem I hope never to have.
My thing is that if all the big brands go electronic for the workhorse groups as well as the top tiers, it means I’m stuck either scrounging for deadstock (doable, not ideal, harder over time) or working with electronic.
I mean who knows, maybe the market floods with nice 11spd hydro disc groupsets as everyone upgrades to 8100/9200 and I’m set for life, maybe the pandemic shortages of that era of componentry never really gets solved as the industry moves on.
I only care about this because the future looks sort of shitty to me, and I’m thinking about how I can work with what’s on the market without having to deal with all the related nonsense.
TC I put a GRX crank on my 6870 drivetrain, and the 48t big ring being big enough convinced me to give Force AXS a shot for a different bike.
I’m sure I’ll find something else on it to complain about…
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GRX is showing no signs of going electronic only. You’re gonna be OK.
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I guess third party cranks/chainrings plus GRX group is basically a road setup.
edit: wait no this has come up before, there’s some devilry with the chainline/fder throw that needs addressing before I can run my preferred 56/42 chainrings
I wonder if the big bike component companies are going to price themselves into a corner with electronic groups.