N-4=n+650b

Tarckives Bikes
1

I’ve made a new thread to get some opinions from Tarck on new bike build. Ive thinned the heard and dissassembled 4 bikes from the stable and in the process of selling those off to fund a new bike project-650b bike. I own a Px10 that i converted to 650b and love the fast marshmellows ride, and want true 650b bike next. I have thought about going balleur and go with a 650b Boulder or the Box Dog Pelican now available in 650b for all sizes. But, the wait would put it into the end of summer/fall before i would get it. So my choice is going to be a Velo Orange Polyvalent Mk2. Next year maybe the Boulder or Pelican might end up as another n+1, and then the VO made into a porteur city build.

The main use of it will be commutting (18.5 miles each way 1/3 of it dirt roads) and some longer rides on the weekend. I have been using my
Nishiki Seral rando bike and it is great, but some more rubber than the 32mm Paselas will be great.

Here is my basic build kit idea. I might save doll hairs in the beginning by borrowing the 650b wheelset from the px10:

60 cm Polyvalent=long top tube, but I am 6’6" so the extra length will be fine
VO or honjo metal fenders
Miche roller bearing headset
Handspun wheels=lx/synergy rear and lx dyno/synergy front
Cyo front and rear ?
Hetre or ?
8 or 9 speed downtube indexed shifter
Deore rear or Ultegra SL mid cage
Rival 48/34, TA 5 pin cyclotouriste 46/30, or older deore lx 48/34
Brooks pro or swallow copy
Silver kalloy post
Tektro cr720 brakes cane creek aero levers
Nitto m12 or VO porteur rack
VO decaluer with Gb28 bag
Nitto technomic with noodles or rando bars

The listed stuff above i have from the other bikes i took apart except for the frameset, headset, bars, wheels, tires, 9 speed downtube shifters/TA rings, and lights. I could even make it a full Sram Rival build as i already have the crank and a front derailleur, and a coworker has a new Rival rd (short cage) and set of shifters that he would sell me for a decent price. Everything else isnt hard to get as i am a bike shop monkey and can get most things on pro deals.

I typed a lot and really have asked any questions yet. Basically i am looking for opinions/experience on what drivetrain parts to use and stuff i dont have yet: tires, fenders, rear light, bars, and whatever else.

2

i generally agree with your build list.

you have bar-ends on the sekai. why do you want to use DT shifters on the VO?

if you don’t need the 30T front ring, don’t mess with 50.4 stuff.

i’d say hetres, based on your assumed size and the fact that you are going off road.

i have the handspun wheels and they are fine.

if you go TA i have some thoughts on front derailleurs if you want them.

3

Don’t cheap out and get the Boulder.
Do the Rival build with a mid cage dangler and build up something modernish with classy looking but not reenactment parts.

4

[quote=tarckeemoon]Don’t cheap out and get the Boulder.
Do the Rival build with a mid cage dangler and build up something modernish with classy looking but not reenactment parts.[/quote]

Agree 100%

I see too many 650b builds using reenactment parts. In fact, I started out with DT shifters and nonaero brakes and have since corrected my error. Downtube shifters are fun on vintage bikes but I see no reason for them on a serious modern bike.

5

If you’re not already finding that Nishiki to be too wiggly the Polyvalent’s non-OS tubing and quill stem will probably be fine. The Polyvalent’s dropouts sure are hateful though. Mike Kone would want to put you on something stouter.

Berthoud fenders, VO alloy if you want to save a few hundred grams, Honjos are too light.

Avoid Synergy rims if you can, go Dyad or A23 at the affordable end.

You can’t go wrong with this light combo: http://xxcycle.com/lumotec-iq-cyo-n-plus-175qndi,,en.php http://xxcycle.com/eclairage-pour-dynamo-led-toplight-line-plus,,en.php

Hetres.

Get friggin shakes. Doubletap is great, especially with a mid-cage dangler and the 12-32 cassette. If you wanna be a cool beardo get Chorus 11s with an XT 9s cassette+dangler.

Get the Rival 180mm 50/34, avoid 11t cogs instead of bothering with 48t. Fukka 50.4 bcd.

noodles > rando bars > anything else > fucking bell laps (you could use the reach range of nudlz, follow Riv’s instructions on setup)

6

^what he said.

7

I read that equation and understood it immediately.

I’m gonna go read a book.

8

I don’t have a lot to add here, but at your height I’d try to put some 45c resist Nomads on something and see if they don’t scratch your marshmellow ride itch. a whole new build ain’t cheap and those tires are.

I ride 60-62 frames and had a couple 650b bikes (pari-motos), and I think I like 700x45 better on big bikes. feels more right. the ride is in the same ballpark as Pari-motos, if not quite as good. but a lot more puncture resistant.

9

[quote=Sneaky Viking]I don’t have a lot to add here, but at your height I’d try to put some 45c resist Nomads on something and see if they don’t scratch your marshmellow ride itch. a whole new build ain’t cheap and those tires are.

I ride 60-62 frames and had a couple 650b bikes (pari-motos), and I think I like 700x45 better on big bikes. feels more right. the ride is in the same ballpark as Pari-motos, if not quite as good. but a lot more puncture resistant.[/quote]

This is a good point.

At 6’6", a 650b bike will likely start looking a bit silly.

If 700x40c tires + fenders doesn’t give you bad toe overlap (which I doubt it will), then I think that’s the route you should go for availability and proportional aesthetic reasons.

10

I took a recent picture of the Nishiki:

7590917742_3218e34bf0_b.jpg1024×765

As you can see it is running bar ends and has an older Sugino XD crank with 46/30t rings combined with a 11-30 9 speed cassette. The bar ends are great, but interfere with the handlebar bag to much. I have routed bar end cable along the bars for a cleaner look on a customer bike and found the extra bends hampered shifting too much for my taste. I was planning on down tubes for simplicity sake. I have a couple vintage bikes (PX10, Volare, and the N-1 Kogswell) with downtube shifters and like them. The Nishiki has Salsa bell laps because of the price I paid for them ($6 when QBP was blowing them out). I will probably do Noodles again as I have three bikes currently running those.

What is wrong with Velocity Synergies? I have Dyads on the PX10 conversion. I can get the LX rear/dyno front to Synergy wheelset for not much more than the cost of a pair of new 650b A23 rims. I could possibly get a better deal than retail on the A23 because I do know a few people that work for Velocity.

With the 46/30 I find I am in the middle of the cassette during a big chunk of my riding. If I went to the 48 or 50 I would probably be move up and cross chaining more than I do know. The Rival crank I have is the 180mm 50/34 as I just swapped the 50 for a 48t. The Rival build is definitely under consideration.

I don’t see how the Resist Nomad tires would be better as I can’t fit them on anything but my LHT. I don’t know of a low trail bike with that kind of tire clearance for 35-45 tires and fenders. They are cheap for sure, but I don’t except an awesome ride from a 30 tpi wire bead tire.

The Boulder is really what I want in the end, but unless I sell everything I have for sale in the next week or so probably won’t happen for awhile. More likely is a Polyvalent build with downtube shifters and parts on hand to get it running. Then later this year in the fall/winter put down a deposit on a Boulder and build it up over the winter for next year. I could unload the PX10 and move a few parts to the VO and keep the nicest stuff for the Boulder build. One problem for me is if I did get the Boulder I wouldn’t see it in person for 2 months. The other is price of course. It is $1400 with no sizing help and a stock size frame/fork. Custom TIG is almost $1700 which I might need anyway because of my jumbo size. The other problem is I would want to go all out on the build for the Boulder so the parts I have on hand wouldn’t cut it in many cases.

All of this really started a few months ago when my new issue of BQ came with the article on a rando bike for a tall guy. He is friends with JH and went with a custom Boulder. He is 6’4" and 190lbs so I have a few inches and an extra toddler in weight on him (250lb down from 280). There is more I wanted to add to the post, but I need to leave or I am going to be late for work.

11

http://oceanaircycles.com/bikes/

Claims to fit a 42 x fender in all sizes. A 45 Nomad is 42ish on most rims.
Biggest size has a 62 top tube.

I have the 45 Nomads. They ride surprisingly nicely. For commute/trailer pulling they’re fantastic. Certainly better than the price would suggest. They aren’t some miracle tire though.

If you want 650b do 650b.

12

I don’t get how buying a Polyvalent, only to set it up sub-par (because you spent money on that frame rather than dyno wheel/lights/hetres) makes any sense at all, especially if you’re going to turn around in short order and sell it or commit it to “townie” duty.

Go Baller! Realistically, by the time you arrange/sell/obtain all your parts, that 2-month wait for a Boulder will seem like nothing. You know it’s true. I’ve gotten all excited about a build before and rushed into buying parts, thinking I’ll have it done that week. Yeah right. By the time the Boulder is ready, you could build your own dyno wheelset, too.

Instead of spending money on the VO frame, spend money on wheels/lights that you can use now on the 650b PX10, then transfer to the Boulder when you get it.

Dyno light: IQ CyoN (like Dirty Sanchez linked to) for the front, but I prefer a fender-mounted light for the rear.
Nitto M12 for sure over the VO porteur, just don’t overload it.

13

I’ve had this bike set up with CK/stans/Pari-motos (baller-ass light shit) and heavy shitty stock wheels with 30tpi Nomads.
I prefer the Nomads, and I’m tearing down the CK wheels now to re-build as 700c.

uglygarage.jpg1024×911

IMG_0553.jpg1023×745

idk maybe for low trail, 650b is magic? I just started to feel like like they were too similar to 26": spin up fast but don’t hold speed as well.

I suggested the Nomads because for <$30, you could make sure a 700x40ish tire wouldn’t suit you better before you drop $2k; if you wanna ball at higher tpi, get some Randonneur hypers

14

[quote=Sneaky Viking]
idk maybe for low trail, 650b is magic? [/quote]

I don’t know. They’re certainly a good way to get more rubber under a smaller frame while still keeping the bicycle looking like a traditional bicycle. My Soma looked a lot better with Col de la Vies under it than it’s looked with most any of the 700c tires I’ve put onto it since I converted it (but it rides between 1-2mph faster with even the crappiest 700c tires, and when given the choice between looks and finishing brevets a hour or two faster, looks come in a distant second place.)

15

[quote=jimmythefly]I don’t get how buying a Polyvalent, only to set it up sub-par (because you spent money on that frame rather than dyno wheel/lights/hetres) makes any sense at all, especially if you’re going to turn around in short order and sell it or commit it to “townie” duty.

[/quote]

I don’t understand that statement at all? How is using some of the parts I have on hand setting it sub par when I planned to do dyno wheels, Cyo, and Hetre on it? If I went to a Boulder down the road that dyno wheelset would move to the Boulder and my Tiagra/Dyad set I built for the PX10 would go on the Polyvalent in a townie build.

Also, one thing I do want to mention is there is no front light choice for me. It will absolutely be a Cyo. I have one on the Nishiki and plan to buy another one without a doubt. I was looking for recommendations on a generator powered fender mounted rear light as I have no experience with those. I have been using a PB superflash mounted to the seat tube on the Nishiki.

[quote=Sneaky Viking]I’ve had this bike set up with CK/stans/Pari-motos (baller-ass light shit) and heavy shitty stock wheels with 30tpi Nomads.
I prefer the Nomads, and I’m tearing down the CK wheels now to re-build as 700c.
-snip-
idk maybe for low trail, 650b is magic? I just started to feel like like they were too similar to 26": spin up fast but don’t hold speed as well.

I suggested the Nomads because for <$30, you could make sure a 700x40ish tire wouldn’t suit you better before you drop $2k; if you wanna ball at higher tpi, get some Randonneur hypers[/quote]

You actually hit the nail on the head. The partial reasoning for going VO and not the Boulder in the beginning is what if I really don’t like it and don’t buy in to JH’s 650B low trail Kool-Aid and then I am out $2K+. The VO will give me a cheaper idea on whether I will like a low trail 650b bike. My PX10 have given me a glimpse of the 650b goodness, but it is not right at all for hauling anything other than a pump and spare tube. If the VO worked out and I went with the Boulder down the road the PX10 would be sold off in pieces.

I do have a question for you on the Nomad’s, are you running the 35 or the 45mm Nomads? I forgot all about my disc brake only Kelly Knobby X cross bike. I did some quick and dirty measurements and it looks like the 45mm will fit in the frame and fork. I can’t fit fenders, but I could give fatty 700c tires a try easily and cheaply.

16

SV that bike is crazy. glad someone took 650b things in that direction. i was going to build a similar wheelset for my trek and am intrigued that you abandoned that and think the nomad is a faster tire than the pari-moto. i get the opposite sensation. not sure i have a point but i thought it was interesting.

just run the cables under the tape up towards the stem, like with shakes.

17

The B&M Seculite is really the only game in town

at a distance in daylight it was actually brighter than a superflash on steady but I don’t know if its batteries were fresh

18

[quote=bigmatt]
I do have a question for you on the Nomad’s, are you running the 35 or the 45mm Nomads? [/quote]

I’m not him, but I’ve run both 45mm and 35mm Nomads (pulled the 45mm Nomads because road debris kept getting jammed up against the crown fork daruma) and the 45s are noticeably faster and smoother riding than the 35s. They spin up a little slower, but I think they ride like a bigger and less flat-prone set of Parigi-Roubaix tires.

19

45s

I get the the appeal of the cheaper frameset to see if you like it now. Makes sense. I have no experience with low trail bikes myself.

20

[quote=bigmatt][quote=jimmythefly]I don’t get how buying a Polyvalent, only to set it up sub-par (because you spent money on that frame rather than dyno wheel/lights/hetres) makes any sense at all, especially if you’re going to turn around in short order and sell it or commit it to “townie” duty.
[/quote]

I don’t understand that statement at all? How is using some of the parts I have on hand setting it sub par when I planned to do dyno wheels, Cyo, and Hetre on it? If I went to a Boulder down the road that dyno wheelset would move to the Boulder and my Tiagra/Dyad set I built for the PX10 would go on the Polyvalent in a townie build.

I was looking for recommendations on a generator powered fender mounted rear light as I have no experience with those. I have been using a PB superflash mounted to the seat tube on the Nishiki. [/quote]

This is where I got the part about you perhaps NOT planning on doing dyno wheels/lights/hetres:

[quote=bigmatt]Here is my basic build kit idea. I might save doll hairs in the beginning by borrowing the 650b wheelset from the px10

/lists lots of parts including dyno wheelset and Hetre’s and IQ cyo/

…The listed stuff above i have from the other bikes I took apart except for the frameset, headset, bars, wheels, tires,…[/quote]

From that it seems that you do not currently own dyno wheels, do not own a IQcyo, do not own Hetres. I totally misunderstood your intentions to get those wheels and tires in any case.

Your first post, more clearly stated, might have been something like:

Correct?

3 post later you said:

[quote]The partial reasoning for going VO and not the Boulder in the beginning is what if I really don’t like it and don’t buy in to JH’s 650B low trail Kool-Aid and then I am out $2K+. The VO will give me a cheaper idea on whether I will like a low trail 650b bike. My PX10 have given me a glimpse of the 650b goodness, but it is not right at all for hauling anything other than a pump and spare tube. If the VO worked out and I went with the Boulder down the road the PX10 would be sold off in pieces.
[/quote]

OK! That makes way more sense. I get it now. I assume you’ve considered just getting a low-trail fork built (or re-raking some cheapo used Peugeot fork) for the PX-10 as an even cheaper way to experience low-trail in a 650b platform? Sure, in the end you don’t have a full Polyvalent frameset to keep, but if you end up not liking it you also don’t have a full Polyvalent frameset to sell off.

Not that I’m saying messing around with bikes is wasting money -you clearly gain experience, etc. Just saying that if your goal is to experiment for minimal cash outlay, perhaps a new fork for the PX10 makes more sense than a whole new frame? You might also consider a Fuji s10s or s12s, many (most/all?) of them had low-trail geometry, and could be 650-b converted.

edit: is this one close to you?
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/bik/3147143712.html