i also say FUCK USA
i also say FUCK USA
I would know the difference. However, you’re absolutely correct. They are using an unnecessarily complex manufacturing technique (billet machining vs. forged) to produce a part that is overpriced and somewhat overbuilt. I think this is why people buy their parts, myself included. The net result is unnecessary adornment for a bicycle, aka bike jewelry. Chris King, anyone? People love their threadless headsets. Read this:
[quote=GoodEyeSniper]how so? You think vastly overpayed/overbenefited factory workers don’t cut out the profits GM could be seeing?
There is obviously still the stigma of “unreliable domestics” from the shitty cars of the 80’s/90’s that they produced. And the fact that now nobody is buying cars, but they were in trouble before the economy bubble popped.
I’m far from an expert, just curious.[/quote]
They’re not “vastly over-payed” nor “vastly over-benefited,” at least when compared to the rest of the car industry. Wages and benefits are about the same all the way around the first world. Also, I hardly think that retirees who worked 40 years for Ford and now collect pensions and health insurance should be considered “over-payed” or “over-benefited.” I don’t think that we should make these people work into their 70s, nor should we force them into third-world living conditions because they’re no longer to perform hard manual labor.
There is a lot of trouble with the car industry, one being poor management for the past thirty years, another being unreliable cars (at least for a long time, maybe not now), but mainly that the car industry are presently set up to make more cars than it can sell. There are currently more cars out there than there are consumers to purchase them, period. Obviously, this is poor management by the big three in their inability to scale to demand. Add to that the fact that no other major car company in the world competes without huge national government subsidies from their respective home nation and that most of these companies exist in societies where things like healthcare and retirement are subsidized by the state, and it’s easy why the US cannot keep up.
cane creek makes their top of the line stuff in north carolina. like their 110 headset which has a 110 year warranty and is supposedly lighter and better than chris king.
BUT THE COLORS!!!
(disclaimer I am now a chris king headset owner.)
[quote=NitroPye]BUT THE COLORS!!!
(disclaimer I am now a chris king headset owner.)[/quote]
This is why I want one. Maybe I’ll Ano a Cane Creek or something.
IIRC one of the advantages of a chris king part is they are pretty supposedly pretty meticulous about keeping their ano process as envionrmentally friendly as possible.
well I <3 chris king, especially the bottom bracket, and I installed my headsets properly, and don’t go around slamming my fork on walls and concrete on a regular basis.
and they last forever and ever and if they dont you get a new one for friz. no bearing maintenance = i like
halbritt: the answer is SARS
4th post
5th post
I could have saved so much money if I just got SARS instead.
It was pretty obvious this was going to happen eventually when they first announced the Synapse.
I would know the difference. However, you’re absolutely correct. They are using an unnecessarily complex manufacturing technique (billet machining vs. forged) to produce a part that is overpriced and somewhat overbuilt. I think this is why people buy their parts, myself included. The net result is unnecessary adornment for a bicycle, aka bike jewelry. Chris King, anyone? People love their threadless headsets. Read this:
http://www.pvdwiki.com/index.php?title=The_BEST_Headset[/quote]
i have been very confused with billet machining for a while now. Everyone i talk to says forging is always much stronger. Forging causes a major shape change with the aluminium causing the grain structure to become closer to each other. This is very desirable because it raises the strength significantly. We can also see this type of effect when we butt tubes or run it thru t4 or t6. Machining out of a billet doesn’t cause any change in the grain structure of aluminium.
Also from my understanding, machining has become cheaper in the USA than Taiwan because of newer cnc technology. What used to take 1 hour can now just take 15 mins. Newer cnc machines can cut with 3 knifes rather than 1. Speeding up the process dramatically. Also the US also have better trained programmers for these machines. As far as pricing goes, if you are not seriously mass producing your goods, forging molds can cost an arm and a leg, and machining becomes the cheaper method.
http://www.bike-eu.com/news/3363/cannondale-frame-production-outsourced.html
So Dorel actually had its best year last year. And I would guess that Cannondale did pretty good as well. Weird.
[quote=tzusing]i have been very confused with billet machining for a while now. Everyone i talk to says forging is always much stronger. Forging causes a major shape change with the aluminium causing the grain structure to become closer to each other. This is very desirable because it raises the strength significantly. We can also see this type of effect when we butt tubes or run it thru t4 or t6. Machining out of a billet doesn’t cause any change in the grain structure of aluminium.
Also from my understanding, machining has become cheaper in the USA than Taiwan because of newer cnc technology. What used to take 1 hour can now just take 15 mins. Newer cnc machines can cut with 3 knifes rather than 1. Speeding up the process dramatically. Also the US also have better trained programmers for these machines. As far as pricing goes, if you are not seriously mass producing your goods, forging molds can cost an arm and a leg, and machining becomes the cheaper method.[/quote]
You are correct on both counts. One can cast or forge near-net shape parts which require a minimum of finish grinding or machining. Forged aluminum parts generally are stronger than their billet machined counterparts however, there are a lot of qualifiers to that statement. Forged parts and billet-machined parts can have vastly different shapes which can have a greater effect on the strength of the final part. Billet-machined parts also produce a lot of wasted material which has been an issue as the price of metals have skyrocketed over the past decade. I think the appeal of “billet” parts is simply by reputation. It’s just something that takes a lot of effort to produce, so it must be good.
I can’t say whether machining is cheaper in the US than Taiwan. I can say that if I needed to manufacture a few hundred small aluminum parts, that I wouldn’t have any difficulty going from a Solidworks model to finished product in a few weeks without ever having to leave the SF Bay area. We’re both aware of the high cost of tooling for forged parts that precludes one from going into production for small runs. There are a number of CNC shops in the US serving boutique industries that are doing quite well. This is likely the result of programming talent and production automation that’s been ongoing over the course of the last several years. However, I’m not sure how much of the more recent high-speed machining advances have actually made into the smaller shops. What I think you’re describing are high-speed machining centers that can handle multiple operations with a single setup and also use very high cutting speeds more suitable to non-ferrous metals such as aluminum. They’re definitely out there, I imagine that’s what LH Thomson uses, but I’m just not sure how prevalent. Hell, a friend of mine has a job shop that manufactures sanitary canning equipment for food, beer, and wine production. He is still using manual machines from the 50s.
So in this sense we can actually say that a forged formula track hub is actually stronger than a billet machined phil wood. but i’d get shot for that. so nevermind.
It just seems to make more sense to forge a basic shape and cncing it down to fine details. You get best of both worlds.
btw aluminium price took a huge nosedive a few months ago after the insane prices just a year ago. Many people that kept stock of aluminium are suffering huge losses.
What industry are you in halbritt?
Their ATVs were as amazingly awesome/fast/good handling as they were unreliable