Time to send in Patch’s mom.
Can someone that understands frame geometry explain why you would choose CoffeeGrinderBiek over DayRuinerBiek?
Obvious diff is big head tube / carbon fork compatability, but let’s say you don’t care about that.
The only thing I can really make sense of is CG has slightly shorter chainstays and slightly lower BB. Do those small diffs really translate into faster/livelier/yolo-ier biek?
Fork offset: H/G is set up with low trail geometry for carrying most of your load on a front rack(s).
Tire clearance: H/G will clear a bigger tire. I’m not sure on specifics, but I have a 650bx2.2 (labeled, need to measure still) tire + snug clearance fenders mounted in my H/G. I don’t know the specifics of C/G tire clearance but I know it’s less.
Good points. I went with H/G because of larger tire clearance and “low trail geometry”, but Endpoint offers (and Braden rides I think?) a CG with the H/G low trail fork.
Anyway, just trying to understand the subtle differences. I’d be curious to ride a CG with H/G fork next to an H/G and see if i’d notice anything.
A brief history of the bikes probably clears it up.
When we first started working on the Coffee Grinder there were no options for an off the shelf disc road bike that cleared 700x35 tires but maintained road racing style geometry (albeit, more Colnago than Cannondale). After fooling around with a custom bike and some other ideas we landed on the original Coffee Grinder geometry by basically copying what worked really well (the Cannondale Synapse which at the time only cleared 25mm tires and used rim brakes) and bumping up the tire clearance. I think just about all of those two runs of frames (made by Elephant) have carbon forks on them at this point and are mostly built up as fat tire “road” bikes.
Since then most companies with a half way design (or marketing) department have a bike like this. Which is more encouraging than frustrating. Only a handful of nerds on an obscure fixie forum will ever know that we beat Specialized to the punch on the modern fat tire roadie.
The Hunter Gatherer is very much the bike that Tarck built. Based on feedback from people here (especially Fred) the HG grew out of my desire to build a bike that would in theory “fix” the few issues with the Elephant NFE (sizing, production time, etc). I had actually gotten as far as talking with Colossi about building it in Taiwan under the Outpost brand. When FBM approached us about doing a touring bike the timing was perfect. I had already drawn up all the geometry charts and started figuring out tubing so shifting the project to them was near seamless.
During this process, the first couple Hunter/Gatherer quick release prototype forks were welded up and I started testing them. We always wanted the fork to first and foremost to be plug and play with any bike using a carbon cross fork so it could be used not only on a Coffee Grinder but on a Caadx or Boone or whatever as well. This, of course, is why the fork has the axle to crown that it does which give a bit more clearance above a 650b tire that looks ideal, but function over form in this case.
So key differences, the Coffee Grinder has always been and always will be, a road bike first and foremost. With the current bikes we actually increased the reach and slightly reduced stack to push it even more squarely into racing bike territory for fit. The end result is a bike that can be raced in a crit, handle fast group rides over pavement and dirt roads, or do duty as your winter trainer when the Tarmac or Pinarello is hanging up for the season. Thusly it has the 41.8cm stays, fit, and bottom bracket drop of a road bike. It clears a 700x35 tire and not REALLY any bigger. Along the way it has gained clearance for 650bx48mm tires and along with the compatiblity with the HG fork, it has inspired future projects.
The Hunter Gatherer makes some tweaks to geometry that pull it well outside “road bike” territory in my opinion. 43.5cm stays a tad less bottom bracket drop to optimize things for 650bx48-60mm tires, a steeper head tube angle to work even better with the low trail fork, more eyelets, more stack, less reach, slacker seat tube, and a tad taller front triangle for more bag clearance. The result is a reasonably zippy bike that is fun to ride fairly fast. What concessions it makes on the road side are made up for with far more capability off road.
Is there a magic bullet somewhere in the middle ground? I think so. The smaller diameter tubing of the HG with the longer/lower geometry of the CG but tweaked to work best with low trail? Lighter weight with a non tapered head tube and 12mm fork with thinner blades? Flat mount? It would check off all the right boxes for me for a racing inspired light rando/touring bike.
I ultimately didn’t pull the trigger on a H/G because it wasn’t sufficiently different than my NFE in the ways I need it to be, but if you make the bike you described in the last paragraph, I am seriously interested.
In the hypothetical case of an XS frame is a stack/reach of 52/36.5 with a 44 center to center seat tube in your ballpark? Toe overlap is going to get a little funky with 700x35, how important is that tire size? 650bx42 as the primary size OK? I’m really keen to make a true XS small bike in the future that makes as few compromises as possible but with no first-hand experience in this realm, I always feel like I’m flying blind.
That stack seems tall for an extra-small, but yeah, 520-520 is my ideal. I’m really after a livelier ride, so the prospect of true thinwall tubing and fork blades is appealing.
Getting stack much lower calls for a shorter fork. I have some feedback from someone who’s opinion that matters on the subject that reducing the a2c by a whole lot more on a steel disc fork is going to be impossible without custom drawn fork blades.
I believe it. My point is just that, with most bikes, a stack in the 520 category typically falls in their “small” category. It’s not a criticism, and like I said, it would would great for me.
Maybe shipping next week, maybe riding first week of May…
Booo-urns
[quote=Endpoint]A brief history of the bikes probably clears it up.
When we first started working on the Coffee Grinder there were no options for an off the shelf disc road bike that cleared 700x35 tires but maintained road racing style geometry (albeit, more Colnago than Cannondale). After fooling around with a custom bike and some other ideas we landed on the original Coffee Grinder geometry by basically copying what worked really well (the Cannondale Synapse which at the time only cleared 25mm tires and used rim brakes) and bumping up the tire clearance. I think just about all of those two runs of frames (made by Elephant) have carbon forks on them at this point and are mostly built up as fat tire “road” bikes.
Since then most companies with a half way design (or marketing) department have a bike like this. Which is more encouraging than frustrating. Only a handful of nerds on an obscure fixie forum will ever know that we beat Specialized to the punch on the modern fat tire roadie.
The Hunter Gatherer is very much the bike that Tarck built. Based on feedback from people here (especially Fred) the HG grew out of my desire to build a bike that would in theory “fix” the few issues with the Elephant NFE (sizing, production time, etc). I had actually gotten as far as talking with Colossi about building it in Taiwan under the Outpost brand. When FBM approached us about doing a touring bike the timing was perfect. I had already drawn up all the geometry charts and started figuring out tubing so shifting the project to them was near seamless.
During this process, the first couple Hunter/Gatherer quick release prototype forks were welded up and I started testing them. We always wanted the fork to first and foremost to be plug and play with any bike using a carbon cross fork so it could be used not only on a Coffee Grinder but on a Caadx or Boone or whatever as well. This, of course, is why the fork has the axle to crown that it does which give a bit more clearance above a 650b tire that looks ideal, but function over form in this case.
So key differences, the Coffee Grinder has always been and always will be, a road bike first and foremost. With the current bikes we actually increased the reach and slightly reduced stack to push it even more squarely into racing bike territory for fit. The end result is a bike that can be raced in a crit, handle fast group rides over pavement and dirt roads, or do duty as your winter trainer when the Tarmac or Pinarello is hanging up for the season. Thusly it has the 41.8cm stays, fit, and bottom bracket drop of a road bike. It clears a 700x35 tire and not REALLY any bigger. Along the way it has gained clearance for 650bx48mm tires and along with the compatiblity with the HG fork, it has inspired future projects.
The Hunter Gatherer makes some tweaks to geometry that pull it well outside “road bike” territory in my opinion. 43.5cm stays a tad less bottom bracket drop to optimize things for 650bx48-60mm tires, a steeper head tube angle to work even better with the low trail fork, more eyelets, more stack, less reach, slacker seat tube, and a tad taller front triangle for more bag clearance. The result is a reasonably zippy bike that is fun to ride fairly fast. What concessions it makes on the road side are made up for with far more capability off road.[/quote]
HY! thanks for the detailed explanation - definitely clears things up for me.
[quote=Endpoint]
Is there a magic bullet somewhere in the middle ground? I think so. The smaller diameter tubing of the HG with the longer/lower geometry of the CG but tweaked to work best with low trail? Lighter weight with a non tapered head tube and 12mm fork with thinner blades? Flat mount? It would check off all the right boxes for me for a racing inspired light rando/touring bike.[/quote]
Uh oh…sounds like a new model
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[quote=Endpoint]
Is there a magic bullet somewhere in the middle ground?[/quote]
the corn/doggler
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Work in progress - added a Wald 137 basket last week which works well with 44cm Cowbells
I love this bike
HY
[quote=dotMR]
Work in progress - added a Wald 137 basket last week which works well with 44cm Cowbells
I love this bike[/quote]
worththewait.jpg?
I would like to see you relocate that light under the rack at some point.
happyCustomerDance.gif
[quote=kmcdon]
I would like to see you relocate that light under the rack at some point.[/quote]
you and me both. Have a disc brake adapter going to try to use, but waiting until I get fenders sorted out. May switch out Eyc too - it’s ok for commuting but when there is no ambient light it’s easy to outride it.
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I usually just cut up a chainring and use that.
The Day/Runnier has arrived. Headset a little bonked though I’m really impressed with the speed that Andy and Braden have responded and resolved it.