Ironic? Not in the least bit…
Just because I know the right way to train doesn’t mean I have any intentions of doing it.
I run a solid cat 2/3 team. The guys under 30 all made cat 3 on raw talent… the ones that have moved up to 2 did it on hard (and smart) training.
[quote=bradencbc]Ironic? Not in the least bit…
Just because I know the right way to train doesn’t mean I have any intentions of doing it.
I run a solid cat 2/3 team. The guys under 30 all made cat 3 on raw talent… the ones that have moved up to 2 did it on hard (and smart) training.[/quote]
Yeah, people around you are training their own way. Every individual has their own recipe for getting there. I’m surprised even more to learn that you are speaking vicariously. The way you were talking to me had me thinking you are cat2 or 3.
Look. My point is, I worked hard for my points, and I don’t appreciate being challenged on my credibility as a rider. Especially by someone who has not done their own work. Do me a favor and shut the fuck up before responding with more criticism.
Trackatino, to answer your question about why no road races,
several reasons,
1.) last race was in mid-june, broke up with my partner and lost all motivation.
2.) No car and I don’t like the idea of driving to ride my bike.
3.) I work weekends.
4.) I have little excuse for why I didn’t race cx this year. I had the bike, the team, the support and the budget. Just not the focus.
What the heck are you talking about? Where did I challenge your credibility as a rider?
I felt ganged up on between you and trackatino about upgrading through a Tuesday crit. The bit about Cat3 Hacks, and trackatino suggesting that most of my points came from Pir and that it barely counts as a crit… I’m not defending PIR though, it’s a pretty boring race, and I agree, it’s not a true crit. But, it is still plenty competitive.
But, you say that’s not what you meant, so, I apologize for the rudeness and the reaction.
woah, calm down man. we all appreciate the thread and the advice. Brandon editing you isn’t empirical, he just things he’s right. He also underestimates how much protein a vegetarian can eat.
[quote=Sandbagbear]I felt ganged up on between you and trackatino about upgrading through a Tuesday crit. The bit about Cat3 Hacks, and trackatino suggesting that most of my points came from Pir and that it barely counts as a crit… I’m not defending PIR though, it’s a pretty boring race, and I agree, it’s not a true crit. But, it is still plenty competitive.
But, you say that’s not what you meant, so, I apologize for the rudeness and the reaction.[/quote]
It’s cool man… I wasn’t ragging on your results. If those crits count for upgrades then they count for upgrades. The rules that USAC sets for cat 4 to 3 are the same no matter what town you are in so the fact that your local training crit is even counted for upgrades probably speaks to the quality of the race.
Our Tuesday night races don’t count for upgrades and if they did I would have been a cat 3 for a couple years now, something I totally don’t think I deserve. Like you I don’t race on weekends much so points are just not available. Throw a broken collarbone into the peak of my best season racing a few years back and things are just not meant to be.
I do stand by everything I said about training though. I have been racing for almost the better part of a decade and have had the pleasure to be in the company of some really talented guys. I know what it takes to make cat 2 and I also know I don’t have what it takes. All the training in the world won’t make a donkey into a race horse the saying goes… So instead I direct my energy into helping out younger riders and get them into a team program that will get them fast.
Two years ago I found 6 riders that were all all under 21 that had potential. Two of them had one season of racing and between the rest of them they had less than 3 races worth of experience. In the first year 4 made it to cat 3 and the other 2 dropped out of the program. After the 2nd year 3 of them are cat 2 and the rest are the level of cat 3 racers that can shape the outcome of the race rather than just being a part of it.
I found them the right level of coaching they needed for each stage of their development and their results speak volumes.
In this same time period a couple of other guys that run in the same circle started racing and took your approach (or the bike messenger approach we call it here) to training and they made it to cat 3 too. But they are clearly stuck there now because they still have yet to hone their approach to training.
Jake, were you using a heart rate monitor or a power meter during that period of time?
[quote=Sandbagbear]I felt ganged up on between you and trackatino about upgrading through a Tuesday crit. The bit about Cat3 Hacks, and trackatino suggesting that most of my points came from Pir and that it barely counts as a crit… I’m not defending PIR though, it’s a pretty boring race, and I agree, it’s not a true crit. But, it is still plenty competitive.
But, you say that’s not what you meant, so, I apologize for the rudeness and the reaction.[/quote]
Well, I’m in about the same position as you. I raced track for a little bit last summer, started road this year in the 5’s and upgraded to 3’s in the summer. The reason I was asking is because PIR mostly tests two aspects of racing for the most part: flat-land mass sprints, and not blowing up by following every little attack that doesn’t stick, which are great things and what I specialize in, and though they’re a training race they can be plenty competitive for those shooting for top 5 (or top 10 in the 1/2/3’s), but not necessarily wholly declarative of one’s overall racing ability. Personally I think cat 3 is basically about the point where one has shown they can stand a little suffering and pay a couple dues and not much else; 2’s are the real separation between who barks and who can actually bite. Also, I make no amends myself to being a fast guy; I can do a thing or two in the sprints but have a long way to go in terms of real speed. Hell, if you my name you can look up my results on OBRA and see how “great” I did in cross this year.
Also, IIRC, PIR points apply to a lesser extent than other races Braden, and none of this is USAC; it’s all OBRA for us besides national’s and collegiate in Oregon.
Things[/quote]
Well, then you do have some things I can learn from. Also, unfortunately, OBRA isn’t USAC. I don’t know where that puts PIR in relation.
Circuit races and crits here and i imagine in most other places count depending on length of the race. it only has to be 10 miles to count for an upgrade from 5 to 4, 20 miles from 4 to 3.
But really it’s up to the discretion of OBRA officials…
I’m no expert but the one thing I do disagree with as far as jake’s advice is riding alone. I used to ride alone a lot, or primarily with 1 other person, and was very unprepared for racing because of this. I didn’t know how to draft and was afraid to ride within 12 inches of another person. It’s taken a lot of group rides and pace lining exercises and such to get me over this fear.
[quote=trackatino][quote=Sandbagbear]I felt ganged up on between you and trackatino about upgrading through a Tuesday crit. The bit about Cat3 Hacks, and trackatino suggesting that most of my points came from Pir and that it barely counts as a crit… I’m not defending PIR though, it’s a pretty boring race, and I agree, it’s not a true crit. But, it is still plenty competitive.
But, you say that’s not what you meant, so, I apologize for the rudeness and the reaction.[/quote]
Well, I’m in about the same position as you. I raced track for a little bit last summer, started road this year in the 5’s and upgraded to 3’s in the summer. The reason I was asking is because PIR mostly tests two aspects of racing for the most part: flat-land mass sprints, and not blowing up by following every little attack that doesn’t stick, which are great things and what I specialize in, and though they’re a training race they can be plenty competitive for those shooting for top 5 (or top 10 in the 1/2/3’s), but not necessarily wholly declarative of one’s overall racing ability. Personally I think cat 3 is basically about the point where one has shown they can stand a little suffering and pay a couple dues and not much else; 2’s are the real separation between who barks and who can actually bite. Also, I make no amends myself to being a fast guy; I can do a thing or two in the sprints but have a long way to go in terms of real speed. Hell, if you my name you can look up my results on OBRA and see how “great” I did in cross this year.
Also, IIRC, PIR points apply to a lesser extent than other races Braden, and none of this is USAC; it’s all OBRA for us besides national’s and collegiate in Oregon.[/quote]
I agree with your perspective on PIR entirely. A lot of it is knowing who’s fast and knowing how to let them do the work, and not get blocked by their teammates. right before I stopped I raced once with the 123s and finished in the middle. I was tired that day and knowing I had a lot more in me was the most frustrating part about ending my season as early as I did. I don’t know how long I should expect to it to take me to get to cat2, or how much time I feel like committing to it. However, I feel like it’s an upgrade within my range of possibility.
Heath, no, but I’m planning to use HR this year. I did keep a close eye on it during races and daily. But the exact numbers I don’t have for you.
[quote=aerobear]
I’m no expert but the one thing I do disagree with as far as jake’s advice is riding alone. I used to ride alone a lot, or primarily with 1 other person, and was very unprepared for racing because of this. I didn’t know how to draft and was afraid to ride within 12 inches of another person. It’s taken a lot of group rides and pace lining exercises and such to get me over this fear.[/quote]
I agree that group rides are vital, but I have yet to find a group that doesn’t stop for peanut butter sandwiches and a cleat adjustment every ten miles.
I had no idea that Portland had non USAC races! I’m really curious about this now…
Explain how it works in your area for me.
Do you guys have USAC licenses?
In a PIR race that has cat 4’s are there also cat 5’s or is each category given it’s own race?
Does the OBRA mimic the rules of USAC for upgrades in regards to field minimums and number of points at each placing?
Does the OBRA retain its own insurance carrier?
[quote=Sandbagbear][quote=aerobear]
I’m no expert but the one thing I do disagree with as far as jake’s advice is riding alone. I used to ride alone a lot, or primarily with 1 other person, and was very unprepared for racing because of this. I didn’t know how to draft and was afraid to ride within 12 inches of another person. It’s taken a lot of group rides and pace lining exercises and such to get me over this fear.[/quote]
I agree that group rides are vital, but I have yet to find a group that doesn’t stop for peanut butter sandwiches and a cleat adjustment every ten miles.[/quote]
You would love our training rides… double paceline… steady effort the whole time… longish pulls and no stops unless someone gets a flat. Even pee brakes are rare and the rider that stops can only expect the group to slow their pace rather than stopping.
One or the other will be necessary for interval training. Preferably, power, but that’s expensive. I’ll be curious to see how well you do this year.
We’ve got a group ride here that does laps around the Port of Oakland. It’s a double paceline and the peloton spends a great deal of time above 30mph.
No USAC licenses for anyone not doing USAC events here, e.g. Nationals qualifier or Nationals event. Everyone has OBRA licenses which are $20/year.
PIR has 4/5, 3/4, and 1/2/3. If you’re a 3, 4 or 5, you have two cats you can enter.
Upgrade points - to an extent yes but it can also be up to personal discretion of the OBRA officials, especially at the track since the track officials will see you race pretty much every time you come out there. If you’re winning a lot of races, they’re going to auto-move you up - otherwise it’s a matter of emailing the head official with your race resume and getting accepted or declined. OBRA upgrade rules: http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
Pretty sure they retain their own insurance carrier since we have to sign an OBRA waiver for every race. Not positive on that, don’t feel like looking it up.
Sandbagbear - in Eugene, starting around April, we have what’s collectively known as the “Thursday nighter”. It’s basically our non-sanctioned version of PIR 1/2/3’s, but on the road, in a 27 mile loop with 2 climbs/descents and around 27mph average/no stops. You’d probably be loving it. A lot of the guys doing that also do an open winter tempo ride every Sat/Sun where they go for 3-5 hours with minimal stops (usually at the top of a climb when the group gets strung out). Both are pretty sweet; Portland is way bigger so I’d imagine there’s gotta be something like that there… but I’m not that keen on the local group rides in PDX since the majority of my time is spent 130 miles south.
Actually, now that I think about it, Portland has the “Lawyer ride” on Mon/Thurs @ 12:15pm with whatever Forest Park area climbs they do. Supposed to be pretty fast/fun from what I hear.
Wow… I had no idea. So what happens if you race out of state? Do you know anyone who has done this? Will USAC sanctioned areas recognize your license and category? They never even touched on this both times I took the USAC officials clinic.
penis envy iTT
I know that for 'cross events there’s usually reciprocity for 3 and up.
Well, everyone I’ve known racing out of state hasn’t had a problem with racing at their category over there so AFAIK the cats transfer over, but not completely sure.
Well, everyone I’ve known racing out of state hasn’t had a problem with racing at their category over there so AFAIK the cats transfer over, but not completely sure.[/quote]
They do… You just have to notify USAC when you upgrade in order for them to recognize it. And to upgrade from a 2 to 1 you obviously have to do non OBRA races.
[quote=Sandbagbear][quote=aerobear]
I’m no expert but the one thing I do disagree with as far as jake’s advice is riding alone. I used to ride alone a lot, or primarily with 1 other person, and was very unprepared for racing because of this. I didn’t know how to draft and was afraid to ride within 12 inches of another person. It’s taken a lot of group rides and pace lining exercises and such to get me over this fear.[/quote]
I agree that group rides are vital, but I have yet to find a group that doesn’t stop for peanut butter sandwiches and a cleat adjustment every ten miles.[/quote]
Well, I’d invite you to ride with my training group if I could… We do weekend rides and usually only stop once, unless someone gets a flat. We usually have some sort of drill. We did nothing but paceline exercises for a few weeks which got kinda boring because we were doing them at a pretty mellow pace. We go on a ride on saturday morning to wherever (last week we did sauvie island instead of going up into the hills cuz cold) and go to swan island on sundays to do things like lead outs, cornering, sprints, etc.
If you are interested in riding withs omeone though, brent does a couple long rides during the week (3-4 hours on wednesday, 2-3 hours on friday) and needs some people to ride with… I dont go along cuz I obviously can’t keep tempo with him…