Tonic Fab Supernauts and bickering...

Tarckives Bikes
61

Sorry about the confusion.

This headset based on the Campy Integrated standard. This is the headset that nearly every steel BMX frame uses, as well as bikes like the Bianchi Pista Concept, and a million other Taiwanese aluminum frames.
We take an Orbit or Impact headset and use the bearings/lower crown race and compression ring. There are no proprietary wear parts. This is not a '94 Klein.

We supply our own press fit top cup and cap. We decided to do this for a couple reasons.

One, it attractively takes up the space that a conventional headset upper cup does. Look at most Bianchi Concept Pista builds…there’s generally a load of spacers underneath the stem. Maybe some folks think that looks OK, but I don’t. I think our headset attractively takes up this space without resorting to disproportionately long head tubes. Another “look” I really don’t like. We’ve got both low and tall caps depending on your bike set-up preferences. It’s also part we can anodize any color if you are interested in colors.

Two, not that its terribly important to a track bike, but the system is also quite light. Lighter than a conventional 1.125" head tube set up.

The headset is strong, serviceable, and light. I think it looks good. Makes sense to me, but if you’d rather have a press fit, of course that’s possible.

As for forks…any 1.125" fork will work. We supply the fork. If you wanted a different fork for some reason, integrated style forks look better, but any conventional crown fork will work too. We are working on our own fork.

I don’t feel that way about “Kabuki” at all. In fact, I appreciate his/her interest in the bike. I feel like my job is to simply provide good information, not “kick people in the dick.” I really don’t follow the logic why no-one here would buy one because of Kabuki?
To be fair, I really don’t get much of anything I’ve seen posted on this forum. There’s language and cycling culture here which simply doesn’t resonate with me. I’m fine with that. I’ve been riding bikes for 24 years. I won’t claim to understand or enjoy everything I’ve encountered along the way.

The original drop outs are very functional. I prefer them to the longer ones.

As for being “Moronic” for running my bikes slammed…
Perhaps you can describe how far back an individual needs to run their rear wheel in order to rise above “Moron?” 1/4"? 1/2"? Full ride Harvard Scholarship at a full 2"?

Perfect example of a comment I don’t understand.

Cheers,

Landon.

62

I don’t feel that way about “Kabuki” at all. In fact, I appreciate his/her interest in the bike. I feel like my job is to simply provide good information, not “kick people in the dick.” I really don’t follow the logic why no-one here would buy one because of Kabuki?
To be fair, I really don’t get much of anything I’ve seen posted on this forum. There’s language and cycling culture here which simply doesn’t resonate with me. I’m fine with that. I’ve been riding bikes for 24 years. I won’t claim to understand or enjoy everything I’ve encountered along the way.

The original drop outs are very functional. I prefer them to the longer ones.

As for being “Moronic” for running my bikes slammed…
Perhaps you can describe how far back an individual needs to run their rear wheel in order to rise above “Moron?” 1/4"? 1/2"? Full ride Harvard Scholarship at a full 2"?

Perfect example of a comment I don’t understand.

Cheers,

Landon.[/quote]

I would be quite impressed with myself if ANYONE made a bike decision based on anything I said. Thanks for giving me that much credit, Mrs. lattanzio.

I posted this bike because I figured there might be someone here with enough of an open mind to check out a good-looking, handmade, small-run, USA-made steel bike. There are a few of using the world that ride what we want to because we like bikes as a way of self-expression, stress relief, or for simple fun. For ourselves. I posted this bike to get the word out for the sake of a small company that hasn’t posted too much stuff on their website. And I thought, if I signed up for this forum to ask a question or two and waste a bit of time, It would only be polite to contribute a bit, if only for a few non-sheep.

Unfortunately, Landon, there are a lot of asinine tools riding bikes nowadays because it’s trendy. They don’t ride for the reasons that make much sense to me either.

Now if you will excuse me, I plan on taking a ride on my utterly horrible, ugly and wrong bicycle that I happen to love. Fortunately, the Brooks keeps my “butthurt” to a minimum. Ironic how it got everyone else’s panties in a wad.

Thanks again, Landon. Sorry to drag you into this. Keep up the good work.

63

Whoa. Way to prove me wrong that bike company reps aren’t going to contribute to this site because we tear their products up.

PS. Personally, I don’t give too much of a crap about any of this. In my eyes, the more bikes the merrier. More bikes = (hopefully) more people on bikes. From my perspective, that can only be a good thing.

64

Landon is the owner and builder. Always very helpful and responsive. Lot of thanks I gave getting him involved on this forum full of assholes and little dicks. I should be dick punched for getting him involved, but it would be easier to hurt my cock by kicking Rusty Piton’s mom in the jaw.

Rather, more POLITE people on bikes, and I would agree with you. There are already plenty of bikes on Earth as it is. By reading this forum, maybe we should stop making more, and start making smarter.

65

[quote=“Kabuki”]And I thought, if I signed up for this forum to ask a question or two and waste a bit of time, It would only be polite to contribute a bit, if only for a few non-sheep.

Unfortunately, Landon, there are a lot of asinine tools riding bikes nowadays because it’s trendy. They don’t ride for the reasons that make much sense to me either.[/quote]

Sigh

The reason I dislike BMW’s, and i reckon the reason most people here who dislike them do, is because they are the definition of trendy. As soon as we started giving you some basically good-natured guff, you skipped straight to ultra-defensive mode. Stop being an asshole.

66

[quote=“johnnyraja”][quote=“Kabuki”]And I thought, if I signed up for this forum to ask a question or two and waste a bit of time, It would only be polite to contribute a bit, if only for a few non-sheep.

Unfortunately, Landon, there are a lot of asinine tools riding bikes nowadays because it’s trendy. They don’t ride for the reasons that make much sense to me either.[/quote]

Sigh

The reason I dislike BMW’s, and i reckon the reason most people here who dislike them do, is because they are the definition of trendy. As soon as we started giving you some basically good-natured guff, you skipped straight to ultra-defensive mode. Stop being an asshole.[/quote]

I see nothing good natured about it, but I didn’t expect good natured when I signed up. My friends said this place was full of drama and I was bored. Now, I’m still bored, the drama is superficial (you guys make it too easy), and the only thing I learned is no matter what kind of wheel you ride, you can’t pedal fast enough to outrun stupidity.

What I do see is the same thing I see from the 14 year olds on The Come Up. People instigate shit-talk because of an apparent lack of security, which is at least as forgivable as it is predictable. Don’t worry, buddy boy. I’ve had a good laugh from it. I hope everyone enjoys riding bikes as much as they claim to, instead of buying one for a ticket to anonymously attack others.

And after it’s all said and done, it only makes the bike I ride that much nicer.

67

Tonicguy:
I think maybe your long R&D time might be the cause of some problems. I don’t know anything about your company except what’s in this thread. It looks like you have designed a very, very nice alleycat-winning type bike. (I’m basing this on the general setup [risers, carbon fork] and the Monster Track winner you mentioned.)

It seems like with the explosion of fixed gear options recently, the bikes have sort of split off into bikes actually for the track and bikes for tricks. The older style fixed gear for cruising-through-the-city/alleycats is not really the flavor of the moment. With SO many options now for a ‘standard’ $500ish FG, it’s like now it helps for a higher end model to be beefy and barspinnable, or lighty and track-worthy.

Personally I think the Supernaut looks very well-crafted, it’s just pricey for a non-niche bike.

68

Kabuki, you have no idea why people talk shit here. You just don’t get it.

The tonicfab frames are nice. Definitely unique, which I like. I’m getting the impression that the frames are custom built for what price? I seem to recall $1.1-$1.2k?

69

Why do you prefer the shorter version?

70

as hes already said, because they “look better”

71

[quote=“doofo”]kabuki

that you joined expecting drama and see nothing good-natured about what you found are likely related

that you can say the drama is superficial and at the same time appear to take it so seriously seems contradictory to me

some of the criticism here probably did arise in insecurity and i would even bet a ton of posters here are slow bike riders too

but the bike you presented early in the thread with a proprietary headset and tiny track ends is worthy of criticism

and received its due

if you enjoy your bikes more “after it’s all said and done” more power to you

but that the way i interpret that claim makes it sounds an awful like “a ticket to anonymously attack others”[/quote]

I joined expecting drama but not wanting drama. I would LOVE to find a forum that was actually cool that consisted of more that 5 people. I like diversity and varying opinions.

Certainly “drama” is on almost every forum I read and contribute to: music related, big bike related, small bike related. The assholes always say its the other person starting the fight for punching back. I expected attacks on the “Post Your Bike” thread. Seems like time and again, that is the only reason those types of threads are for, and I was willing to open myself up to such things. They never bother me more than any rude jerk bothers me being a rude jerk. But I am also willing and happy to “discuss” with these folks their points. And, of course, the same jerks were happy to bring the comments against me over to another thread that was meant to be nothing more that a bit of friendly info on a really nice frame…and look where that went.

It’s not generally in my nature to instigate an attack on anyone for any reason, because frankly, I couldn’t care how idiotic something might be (or conversely, how idiotic others might perceive it). I never spend more than half a second on anything someone else is doing for themselves. They ride for themselves, not me… unless they are riding for the approval of others so that they themselves may pass judgment on others. I’ve actually never seen a bike I thought was ugly or worthless, but it sure is easy to say I did for the sake of being an asshole. (Get it?)

I’ve been riding for far too long to expect otherwise. Every “scene” has it. Roadies have their twats. Mountainbikers have their cunts. BMXers have their assholes. And Track bike riders have plenty too. Just as they each have cool people who see past all the bullshit. There is an army of kids on 20’s laughing at you right now that think there is nothing completely faggier than a dude on a track bike pretending to be a messenger and pulling “tricks”. So much so that I have friends in that category that wouldn’t want to be associated with track bikes anymore and quit riding them because it has gotten so horribly “trendy.” I also have friends that only ride track bikes that think my BMW is ugly as piss. And I have friends that think that all bikes are a nuisance and only skateboard. We don’t all agree on everything. Everyone has their own style and way of doing things. But we are all respectful of one another. We criticize. We discuss. We ride. And if anyone were to attack my friends, I would kick their teeth in.

So, my beef is not with Tarckbike. I knew what I was signing up for - just another forum. Nothing special other than the track bikes therein, which is enough for me to wade through the crap. It’s with any coward who is all too quick to throw a punch, but can’t take the reposte…

Cheers

72

The original drop outs are very functional. I prefer them to the longer ones.

As for being “Moronic” for running my bikes slammed…
Perhaps you can describe how far back an individual needs to run their rear wheel in order to rise above “Moron?” 1/4"? 1/2"? Full ride Harvard Scholarship at a full 2"?

Perfect example of a comment I don’t understand.

Cheers,

Landon.[/quote]

One of the biggest drawbacks of rear facing dropouts is that it can be a royal pain in the ass to remove the rear wheel, especially when you jam the axle all the way in. If you give yourself even 1/2" of play, you can really derail the chain much easier and pull the wheel off if you get a flat. Basically, most people who slam their wheel all the way into the dropout are making their own lives more of a pain in the name of 1/2" of fashionable tightness.

73

Not sure about other folks, but I don’t change my gearinches, and since the day I built my bike, the rear wheel has stayed in the same location. I really don’t need more that about half and inch of adjustment, and only to get the chain slack enough to remove the wheel if a flat occurs. I would imagine a smaller trackend would be lighter, stiffer, cleaner, and adequate.

If folks are swapping cogs and rings, I could see a bigger trackend being useful. Does anyone do that?

Earlier on, I wasn’t into the frame. The sloping tope tube and the headset turned me off a bit. Knowing that those features aren’t set in stone has this bike back on my radar.

Now I just need to win the lottery.

74

Not sure about other folks, but I don’t change my gearinches, and since the day I built my bike, the rear wheel has stayed in the same location. I really don’t need more that about half and inch of adjustment, and only to get the chain slack enough to remove the wheel if a flat occurs. I would imagine a smaller trackend would be lighter, stiffer, cleaner, and adequate.

If folks are swapping cogs and rings, I could see a bigger trackend being useful. Does anyone do that?

Earlier on, I wasn’t into the frame. The sloping tope tube and the headset turned me off a bit. Knowing that those features aren’t set in stone has this bike back on my radar.

Now I just need to win the lottery.[/quote]

This is idiotic. A smaller track end being lighter and stiffer? You’re stoned.

And everyone changes cogs and rings at some point.

75

Sober as a nun (maybe that’s my problem). Less metal = lighter. Tubes instead of plates = stiffer. Or am I missing something?

I will change my ring when it wears out, but I’m not bashing it, so that may be a while… and I was thinking about it. If you are running Profiles, Phils, Chubs or any other hub with studs, slamming a wheel wouldn’t be too much of a problem, as long as there is a total of .5 inches to the [color=#FF0000]seat tube[/color] with the wheel slammed.

¿que pasa?

76

If you really feel like you’ll notice a difference when you cut off the end of your track ends, then you are an idiot.

And what about the other hubs that use normal old 15mm track nuts? You know, the ones that a majority of fixed gear riders run.

77

i don’t think there is anything with running the rear wheel “slammed,” except for the fact that you shouldn’t be choosing where the wheel ends up. once you factor in chainring/cog/chain+chainstretch/proper tension the wheel goes where it must, not where i think it looks good.

78

Allow me to respond directly to folks. This might get lengthy…

[quote=“Petr5”]Whoa. Way to prove me wrong that bike company reps aren’t going to contribute to this site because we tear their products up.
[/quote]
I’m certainly not ashamed of this bike. Nothing we are doing is beyond criticism. It gives me a good opportunity to explain why the bike is the way it is.

[quote=“snarcky varcking”]
It seems like with the explosion of fixed gear options recently, the bikes have sort of split off into bikes actually for the track and bikes for tricks. The older style fixed gear for cruising-through-the-city/alleycats is not really the flavor of the moment. With SO many options now for a ‘standard’ $500ish FG, it’s like now it helps for a higher end model to be beefy and barspinnable, or lighty and track-worthy.

Personally I think the Supernaut looks very well-crafted, it’s just pricey for a non-niche bike.[/quote]

Interesting point. It’s very possible we are missing the boat on some current trends. However, I’d guess most nice track frames are used exclusively for bombing around town. Which, as you pointed out the SN looks pretty good for. For what it’s worth a SN has been raced at the track, and that was the main reason the DO’s grew. Obviously gear changes and short DO’s are a pain. As for freestyle riding…BMX is a big part of my cycling background, but I haven’t haven’t paid much attention to the fixed gear freestyle world. Maybe it’s bigger than I think.
Here’s a shot of me riding Burnside.

[quote=“doofo”]tonicfab

you must be able to appreciate the skepticism brought to bear by people who have been flooded with a glut of frames designed for little else than capitalizing on the fixed gear craze and distinguished only by gimmicks, branding, or nothing at all

most of this is bluster and fun and of course some isnt but we appreciate your willingness to look past both to explain the reasoning behind your supernauts[/quote]

Doofo, thanks for taking the time to write this, and I agree completely with you.

[quote=“crushkilldestroy”]

One of the biggest drawbacks of rear facing dropouts is that it can be a royal pain in the ass to remove the rear wheel, especially when you jam the axle all the way in. If you give yourself even 1/2" of play, you can really derail the chain much easier and pull the wheel off if you get a flat. Basically, most people who slam their wheel all the way into the dropout are making their own lives more of a pain in the name of 1/2" of fashionable tightness.[/quote]

To each their own. If you want 1/2", go for it. Our new DO’s will accept that. Call it fashion or habit, I’ve always run my wheel slammed. I’m not alone here. We’ve sold a load of bikes this year with this DO arrangement which has the same slot length as the original SN’s. Zero complaints.

Looks aside, I’d rather add as little chain stay length to my bike as possible. With a half-link, you can pretty much get a wheel anywhere you want it.

Cheers,

Landon.

79

I wouldn’t cut my bike, so I’m not. Thanks for backing me up on this. :slight_smile:

I ain’t the majority of fixed gear riders. I thought we covered that.

I remember when BMX went through this. A few years back (about 7), a smart fellow by the name of Josh Heino came up with the idea of small dropouts on his Omen BMX frame. Everyone scoffed. Said it was stupid. Said it was weaker. Said it was a fad… now TRY to find a single new BMX frame that doesn’t have small dropouts. Lighter, stronger. That has been the theme for the past 5 years in BMX, and the sport has progressed faster in the last 5 that it ever has in the first 25. People can be so scared of good ideas. THe herd mentality covers everything nowadays… but I figured there would be a lot of sheep on this forum.
baaaaa baaaaa baaaaa!

I’ve heard this and that about companies jumping on the bandwagon to build trackbikes that bring nothing new to the table or have gimmicks. What you call a gimmick now could well be the next standard. Time will tell, but someone has to do it. I’m all for the classics: NJS and Italian lugged bikes. They are pretty. But they are also still using quill-fucking-stems. Hell, NJS (Nihon Jitensha Shinkōkai - I used google to find the wiki!) is nothing but a bunch of rules to stop people from using newer, better technology to give the riders an edge or advantage. The whole idea is to keep the bikes as they were in 19 FUCKING 57! Ar you guys so stuck up the NJasS that you can’t see the catch? That is fucking stupid…(unless that is what you are looking for - the whole vintage for vintage sake - which I also understand. Again, they look pretty.)

Now, I’m not that stupid. I know the majority of you fell off the NJS dick a while back (if you were even riding while it was still hot - I doubt it) and are on aheadset frames. Guess what. Aheadset was laughed at too as a fad and overkill. Integrated headset? YEP. Even Chris King still refuses to adapt. Those aerospokes you picked up extra shifts flipping burgers to get? Roadies gave up on those 5 years ago. Too heavy. Too stiff… a fad.

So, before you line up like the rest of the goats, ewe owe it to yourselves to take step back and think about it for a bit. Not every bike will be perfect for everyone. If it was, we would all be on Bianchi’s (oops! I almost forgot that most of you are). At least, with he giant pool of R&D that these “gimmick” bike companies like Tonic, BMW and Geekhouse are adding to, the shit I will be riding in 10 years will be unbelievable. I said I because we both know all you will probably go back to rollerblading once it’s not the gayest thing on the block-which it won’t be in short order if you fools keep up the way you are going.

Now, all you haters, go eat a dick.

Everyone else with an open mind, thanks for the patience.

Good night.

80

I’m trying to figure out how you can feel the weight lost by removing small amounts of metal or using a lightweight headset on a 4.5lb frame. And I’ve got a feeling that the efficiency you are losing to the reduced stiffness caused by another inch of dropout can be compensated for by using a stiffer crank (in case you haven’t been around, we have a good laugh at people who are convinced they can feel the difference in the stiffness between high quality track cranks when they are cruising the city).

To get non-trendy riders to pay over $1,000 for a steel frame, you may have to provide them with more rationale for your decisions than “it looks good” (the kids in it for the aesthetic, on the other hand, will pay loads of cash for just about anything). The headset thing is all well and good. I’m sure it’s a fine design and probably quite durable. But I’ve got a campy record loose ball headset on my '81 eddy merckx that’s still working great after 27 years. Durability hasn’t generally been an issue with well maintained headsets, regardless of the technology put into designing them. As for the upper cup, it looks a lot like a really wide spacer to me. It would be nice if it was painted the same color as the frame, but then it would look like the extended head tube you were trying to avoid.

It’s a cool bike, no doubt. A lot of thought has gone into making it look better to some people without losing much functionality. And if $1,100 gets a frame with custom geometry, then it’s actually a pretty good deal. Can you get custom geometry?